HELP I need some new books - Recommendations?

[Penny_Dredfull]

Louis- If visiting sites associated with famous murders makes a person strange then probably everyone on here is strange! I've dragged my nearest and dearest round every British and Continental holiday spot searching out murder sites. Sometimes they still exist, sometimes not.
Ok- no books by Diane Janes for you. Fair enough. But I will say one thing- reading multiple books on the same murder is by no means a bad thing. No one book is definitive, and it's good to get various perspectives and insights from different versions. Even when you violently disagree with an author's take on things, at least it allows you to reassess and reform your own thoughts and position. It's like having a discussion.
After all, there is no ONE book on Jack the Ripper. Many of us own multiple books on the subject- doesn't mean we agree with all of them! Some of them I like more than others, of course. But it's useful to know what's going on and being said on the subject. I would never say I had read one book on Jack the Ripper and so I know all about it and don't need to look further. If we all did that forums like this one wouldn't exist!

[louisa]

Louisa- Another thought: A murder which is in many ways as mysterious and unsolved as the Julia Wallace case is that of Caroline Mary Luard- referred to variously as the Seal Chart or Igtham murder. There's little written on it- I first read about it in a book by Julian Symons called A Reasonable Doubt. It came out in 1960 and I don't know if it's still in print. (Probably not- a lot of the great true crime books I love are out of print!) But there is a more recent book (2007) called Edwardian Murder: Igtham and the Morpeth Train Robbery by Diane Janes that discusses it. I know Minette Walters wrote a short work of crime fiction based on it called A Dreadful Murder. Haven't read it, so if you do let me know what you think! Happy reading!

I already know that one and I agree, it's one of those fascinating whodunnits (my favourite type of murder, if you know what I mean).

I would never buy anything by Diane Janes after reading her take on the Birdhurst Rise murders. I mentioned this in my last post. I even wrote to her about it. She plays fast and loose with the facts of the case and that is one case that I know backwards, forwards and sideways. I actually visited the graves of the deceased a few years ago and took some photos. Yes, I know I'm strange.

I already know most of the famous British murders. I prefer those old British cases to the American ones.

Another great read is Murder at Wrotham Hill by Diana Souhami. I found that a very sad case but they got the person responsible so it isn't a whodunnit. Good book though.
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[Penny_Dredfull]

Louisa- Another thought: A murder which is in many ways as mysterious and unsolved as the Julia Wallace case is that of Caroline Mary Luard- referred to variously as the Seal Chart or Igtham murder. There's little written on it- I first read about it in a book by Julian Symons called A Reasonable Doubt. It came out in 1960 and I don't know if it's still in print. (Probably not- a lot of the great true crime books I love are out of print!) But there is a more recent book (2007) called Edwardian Murder: Igtham and the Morpeth Train Robbery by Diane Janes that discusses it. I know Minette Walters wrote a short work of crime fiction based on it called A Dreadful Murder. Haven't read it, so if you do let me know what you think! Happy reading!

[Penny_Dredfull]

Louisa- What I neglected to say about the Hartman book is that it is much more than just a basic recounting of each murderous tale. It compares each British female murderer with an equivalent French one. So, whereas you may have read before of Kent, Bartlett, Maybrick, etc, you may not be familiar with Marie Lafarge, Henriette Francey, Euphemie Lacoste, Celestine Doudet, Angeline Lemoine or Gabrielle Fenayrou. Hartman also examines the behaviour of these women in terms of socio-cultural history. So, I still think it's worth a look.

[louisa]

I love The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise! I used to own a second-hand, well-thumbed paperback copy in the Penguin Crime imprint with the rather lurid red thumbprint cover. lol
My two suggestions are Victorian Murderesses by Mary S. Hartman- which covers 13 British and French female killers such as Constance Kent, Madeline Smith, Florence Maybrick, Adelaide Bartlett, etc. And A Very British Murder by Lucy Worsely which is very entertaining and informative. It explores how real-life crime, science and the emerging art of detection influenced popular conceptions of homicide- basically how strange sods like us became so fascinated by murder! Highly recommended and fun.

Hi Penny,

Thanks for those recommendations but I know all those murders and have individual books about them.

The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise is one I keep re-reading, I love a murder that is a bit of a whodunnit. Another book (about the case) was written a few years ago by Diane Janes but it was such a load of cods that I actually wrote to the author to tell her so. (I was very polite btw). She wrote me a 6 page email back - she was quite annoyed that anyone had the nerve to pick holes in her (idiotic) theory.

Richard Whittington Egan is a terrific writer. I think it's worth reading all his books on true crime.

I often write to authors if I have enjoyed their books.

Another good read that springs to mind is the little heard of one - Heaven Knows Who by Christianna Brand. It centres on one murder in Glasgow in the late 19th century but it's a fascinating one. Another whodunnit.

https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Knows-.../dp/B01FGVUW2I
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[Penny_Dredfull]

I love The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise! I used to own a second-hand, well-thumbed paperback copy in the Penguin Crime imprint with the rather lurid red thumbprint cover. lol
My two suggestions are Victorian Murderesses by Mary S. Hartman- which covers 13 British and French female killers such as Constance Kent, Madeline Smith, Florence Maybrick, Adelaide Bartlett, etc. And A Very British Murder by Lucy Worsely which is very entertaining and informative. It explores how real-life crime, science and the emerging art of detection influenced popular conceptions of homicide- basically how strange sods like us became so fascinated by murder! Highly recommended and fun.

[louisa]

A few threads ago somebody mentioned the author Richard Whittington Egan (in relation to the book Jack of Jumps which I have on order from Amazon).

RWE is one of my favourite true crime authors and it's worth mentioning, for anyone who is interested in reading a couple of excellent books, that he wrote these two (which are both favourites of mine).

The Ordeal of Philip Yale Drew
The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise

If you haven't already got these in your collection then you're missing a treat. Both books are about unsolved murders and they are fascinating, giving a real insight into Britain in the thirties.

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,



This is the theory propounded by the writer Piers Paul Read in his book about the GTR. It's years and years since I read it, and I can't remember how he came up with this idea, but I'm pretty sure that no other writer or commentator on the GTR agreed with him. Nice thought, though - if it was old Otto, then perhaps he should have repeated his Mussolini rescue stunt and landed his Fieseler Storch aircraft alongside the stopped train, then flown off into the night and history two and a half million quid the richer.....

Re: Sir Jack Drummond, not sure what you're getting at with regard to his title.

Graham

Hi Graham,

I saw the theory about Skorzeny in the Piers Paul Read book (which I have). It would have been a nice touch had he popped up in that Fieseler Storch, but by 1967 he was a bit bigger in size (and girth) than in 1943/44. The plane might have had problems with payload.

As a simple Yank, my comment about Drummond's title shows my limitations. Sir Jack had a knighthood, not a title with land (like Lucan was an Earl with an estate). I should have said that when I first was acquainted with the Drummond case it was the first time that I came across a 20th Century murder case where the victim (or here one of the victims) had an English knighthood or title at all. Since then, by the way, I have noted some others. In the last year of World War II three American G.I.s were arrested (and two executed) for killing a baronet on his estate (they were drunk on the occasion).

Jeff

[Graham]

Hi Jeff,

As for the Great Train Robbery, what I always was intrigued about is a story (possibly nothing more than a story) that the plan used was concocted by (of all people) former SS troubleshooter agent Otto Skorzeny, then living comfortably in Spain. I still wonder if that true, but I have a feeling it isn't.

This is the theory propounded by the writer Piers Paul Read in his book about the GTR. It's years and years since I read it, and I can't remember how he came up with this idea, but I'm pretty sure that no other writer or commentator on the GTR agreed with him. Nice thought, though - if it was old Otto, then perhaps he should have repeated his Mussolini rescue stunt and landed his Fieseler Storch aircraft alongside the stopped train, then flown off into the night and history two and a half million quid the richer.....

Re: Sir Jack Drummond, not sure what you're getting at with regard to his title.

Graham

[Mayerling]

Hi Louisa,



On the basis that there are two sides to every coin, and that there is rarely smoke without fire, I've had a fairly good look on the internet and I would still seriously question the assertion that Sir Jack had never visited France prior to that fatal holiday. French investigator M. Raymond Badin seems quite certain that Sir Jack had been in France on previous occasions, regarding what was basically industrial esponage spiced with possible wartime connections to MI6 (or maybe SOE, but on reflection probably not SOE). The other question that M. Badin asks, is what was the possible motive of Gaston Dominici in killing all three members of the Drummond family? M. Badin goes on to mention the apparent presence of unknown men in the area immediately prior to the murders. Not saying I swallow all of this with relish, and I will definitely put the Jean LaBorder book on my (ever lengthening) 'to read' list. I will hopefully also find time to read that article by Vincent Carrias over the weekend.

By the way, it seems Sir Jack's parentage was in question - also, there is no birth-certificate in his name in the Public Records Office. Just the sort of background MI6 likes!

Meanwhile - does anyone have any interest in the Great Train Robbery? Not a murder, but apart from the blokes who were tried at Aylsbury and given long prison sentences, it does have the tasty tang of an unsolved crime.

Graham

Hi Graham,

The thing I always got intrigued about concerning Sir Jack's murder with his family was he was one of the few Englishmen with a title (like the Earl of Erroll in Kenya, though he was Scottish), who was a recent murder victim. [Lord Lucan does not fit, as he is the alleged (and probable) murderer, and Lord Mountbatten was technically the victim (with a grandson) of a political assassination.]

As for the Great Train Robbery, what I always was intrigued about is a story (possibly nothing more than a story) that the plan used was concocted by (of all people) former SS troubleshooter agent Otto Skorzeny, then living comfortably in Spain. I still wonder if that true, but I have a feeling it isn't.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Spot on Jeff.

Monty
😄

I read that they finally found the head of the poor woman only about ten or fifteen years ago.

Jeff

[louisa]

Graham -

For argument's sake let's assume that Sir Jack was a spy on a mission - would he honestly use his family as a smokescreen? Would you? He had definitely never been to France before and even had to use a phrase book in order to book the family into a hotel.

And you are asking us to believe that a hired assassin would be wandering about in the French countryside, hoping to murder Jack Drummond, with an old ex-army Rock Ola rifle that had been amateurishly cobbled together with a piece of rusty wire?

The fact that Sir Jack was a scientist and that there may have been an altogether different motive for his killing was vigorously pursued by the detectives, in both investigations, and dismissed as unviable.

Conspiracy theorists pride themselves on 'thinking outside the box', and in doing so tend to overlook the obvious. The reasons for the brutal murder of this innocent family were as basic and old as time itself.

Graham, I'm hoping we can discuss this case again after you have read the book because I suspect you will re-think your opinions.

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

I was looking at the cover of the book, "The A-Z of Victorian Crime" and I wonder if that scene is the murder of the employer of Kate Webster. It looks like it is.

Jeff

Spot on Jeff.

Monty
😄

[Graham]

Hi Louisa,

Note to Graham and anyone else interested in the Dominici Affair- you may find this website interesting. It is the findings of the Judge in the final investigation. Juge Carrias was appointed to have the final say on the matter, after the detectives and the Surete had finished their investigations, because he was totally independent and unbiased - even the Dominicis recognized this and respected him.

On the basis that there are two sides to every coin, and that there is rarely smoke without fire, I've had a fairly good look on the internet and I would still seriously question the assertion that Sir Jack had never visited France prior to that fatal holiday. French investigator M. Raymond Badin seems quite certain that Sir Jack had been in France on previous occasions, regarding what was basically industrial esponage spiced with possible wartime connections to MI6 (or maybe SOE, but on reflection probably not SOE). The other question that M. Badin asks, is what was the possible motive of Gaston Dominici in killing all three members of the Drummond family? M. Badin goes on to mention the apparent presence of unknown men in the area immediately prior to the murders. Not saying I swallow all of this with relish, and I will definitely put the Jean LaBorder book on my (ever lengthening) 'to read' list. I will hopefully also find time to read that article by Vincent Carrias over the weekend.

By the way, it seems Sir Jack's parentage was in question - also, there is no birth-certificate in his name in the Public Records Office. Just the sort of background MI6 likes!

Meanwhile - does anyone have any interest in the Great Train Robbery? Not a murder, but apart from the blokes who were tried at Aylsbury and given long prison sentences, it does have the tasty tang of an unsolved crime.

Graham

[Mayerling]

May I be so bold as to introduce you to our latest efforts Louisa, The A-Z of Victorian Crime?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01ICHQNPI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

We've tried to include the lesser known amongst the better known.

Monty
🙂

Hi Monty,

I was looking at the cover of the book, "The A-Z of Victorian Crime" and I wonder if that scene is the murder of the employer of Kate Webster. It looks like it is.

Jeff