Missing Manuscripts and Documents

[Mayerling]

I recently had a brief discussion with Pierre on another thread concerning his theory that the pawn tickets found on Catherine Eddowes' body may contain an anagram regarding the actual name of the Whitechapel Murderer. Anyone interested in that theory can read through that thread. However, I picked up on a point concerning Pierre's apparent dismissal of the use of photographed copies of artwork when the paintings should be studied for purposes of scholarship. Valid, but I pointed out that the photographs were needed when the paintings, etc. no longer were available to be studied closely. The full discussion I put down ended up in looking at writings and communications (hieroglyphics, cuneiform, monuments), and how it has really been since around 300 A.D. that more and more documents and writings we would recognize as such have existed.

The full discussion I wrote went far beyond pawn tickets on a victim's body, though it did link to the issue of photographic evidence (these pawn tickets no longer seem to exist, ergo the comments on the writings on the pawn tickets would have to depend on something like photographs of them - which also don't apparently exist). However, I decided to restart the issue that this all came from here.

How many of you read Richard Altick's classic study on manuscripts and literary rediscovery, loss, or even forgery, "The Scholar Adventurers"? If you have a chance try to get a copy, as it is a fascinating study touching on what I concerned myself with on the other thread. So I open this up (hopefully), asking what documents, manuscripts, writings, do the users of this website wish were available at the present day?

Jeff

[Pcdunn]

Hello, Jeff,

Nice question to ask a collections librarian!

Obviously, I would want the entire catalog of the Library of Alexandria, most of which was destroyed about 50 years before the Common era.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Library-of-Alexandria

[Mayerling]

Hello, Jeff,

Nice question to ask a collections librarian!

Obviously, I would want the entire catalog of the Library of Alexandria, most of which was destroyed about 50 years before the Common era.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Library-of-Alexandria

But nothing more recent? Of course the lost plays of the seven dramatists we know the work of (Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Aristophanes, Menander, Plautus, Terence, and Seneca) would be great. In Terence's case the library would only have had the six plays we have - the others were lost at sea in a shipwreck, and had not been produced - but perhaps he left he left other writings. The works of other playwrites would have been of interest. And then the lost works of Plato and Aristotle, and possibly any writings of others we have fragments of (Zeno, for instance). Same with the scientists and historian. It's a good place to start.

But what of more recent centuries?

Jeff

[GUT]

Clearly the full police file in relation to the Whitechapel murders.

But then on a personal level the wills of two of my Ancestors.

One simply because I'd like to know more about him, and it was destroyed during one of the air raids and it's frustrating to know it survived till then and I am lead to believe that it had a comprehensive list of his property holdings and I'm simply curious.

The other because it disappeared, rather mysteriously, together with the dreads to his property, costing my Great grandmother much grief and her family home and a few thousand acres of prime real estate.

A number of Biblical manuscripts "The book of Enoch" intrigues me, as does the "Gospel of Peter" (mainly hoping it contains his account of the denial).

[Mayerling]

Clearly the full police file in relation to the Whitechapel murders.

But then on a personal level the wills of two of my Ancestors.

One simply because I'd like to know more about him, and it was destroyed during one of the air raids and it's frustrating to know it survived till then and I am lead to believe that it had a comprehensive list of his property holdings and I'm simply curious.

The other because it disappeared, rather mysteriously, together with the dreads to his property, costing my Great grandmother much grief and her family home and a few thousand acres of prime real estate.

A number of Biblical manuscripts "The book of Enoch" intrigues me, as does the "Gospel of Peter" (mainly hoping it contains his account of the denial).

G'day Gut,

Nice choices again. I am particularly interested in many missing books mentioned in the O.T. The "Apochrypha" barely covers them all.

As for the Whitechapel Case, I would like to see a complete set of files, but the item that always intrigued me was the lack of a photograph of the corpse of Monty Druitt - the Thames River Police were photographing corpses for over a decade or so, so they should have taken his photograph. None has ever popped up.

Jeff

[GUT]

G'day Gut,

Nice choices again. I am particularly interested in many missing books mentioned in the O.T. The "Apochrypha" barely covers them all.

As for the Whitechapel Case, I would like to see a complete set of files, but the item that always intrigued me was the lack of a photograph of the corpse of Monty Druitt - the Thames River Police were photographing corpses for over a decade or so, so they should have taken his photograph. None has ever popped up.

Jeff

Yep I find that strange too. It appears photographing corpses of murder victims and suicides was common at the time, but no Montie.

How about the letter William references that's another lost document from the case.

Or how about Joseph Smith's Golden Plates? Or

The original commandments Moses is said to have smashed, I suspect they were different to the latter ten.

Haiti's original Declaration of Independence though I suspect it's the same as the copies we have, to see the original would be incredible.

On the other hand I've been fortunate enough to read some very old documents by ancestors of mine, I may be strange but I get a bit of a thrill to read something written by a relative dead for hundreds of years. The letters of Lady Jane Cornwallis are a fascinating insight into what appears to be a strong willed woman, her self negotiating of her marriage to Bacon is intriguing. But I guess documents you've read that move you is another topic.

[Mayerling]

Yep I find that strange too. It appears photographing corpses of murder victims and suicides was common at the time, but no Montie.

How about the letter William references that's another lost document from the case.

Or how about Joseph Smith's Golden Plates? Or

The original commandments Moses is said to have smashed, I suspect they were different to the latter ten.

Haiti's original Declaration of Independence though I suspect it's the same as the copies we have, to see the original would be incredible.

On the other hand I've been fortunate enough to read some very old documents by ancestors of mine, I may be strange but I get a bit of a thrill to read something written by a relative dead for hundreds of years. The letters of Lady Jane Cornwallis are a fascinating insight into what appears to be a strong willed woman, her self negotiating of her marriage to Bacon is intriguing. But I guess documents you've read that move you is another topic.

I'm suddenly curious about the original Haitian Declaration of Independence. It's missing? Somehow I think they would have saved that one. Also is there any suspicion it was changed since the 1790s?

If they ever found Joseph Smith's golden plates from Moroni, they should end up being put into the great Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, Utah. Somehow these may be more in the realm of phantasy, but if they should turn up...they'd be of considerable interest.

As for Moses's tablets - perhaps you saw Mel Brooks' "History of the World, Part I" where he showed what was the truth was concerning the fate of the original "fifteen" commandments!

The letter from Montie to his employer would also be of considerable interest to see if it turned up.

Jeff

[Pcdunn]

Top 10 Books lost to time, per the Smithsonian

But nothing more recent? Of course the lost plays of the seven dramatists we know the work of (Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Aristophanes, Menander, Plautus, Terence, and Seneca) would be great. In Terence's case the library would only have had the six plays we have - the others were lost at sea in a shipwreck, and had not been produced - but perhaps he left he left other writings. The works of other playwrites would have been of interest. And then the lost works of Plato and Aristotle, and possibly any writings of others we have fragments of (Zeno, for instance). Same with the scientists and historian. It's a good place to start.

But what of more recent centuries?

Jeff

This list covers lost literary works from Homer's comedy to Sylvia Plath's last, unfinished novel, so there is a good span of time covered in there.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-top-10-books-lost-to-time-83373197/

As a librarian and literature major, I'd enjoy seeing Homer's "Margites" and the lost Shakespeare play "Cardenio" the most, but all of the titles on the list are intriguing.

It's interesting to learn how we know of the existence of some of these works-- because other people mentioned them in letters or other writings.

For the Ripper case, I'd like to find the missing inquest reports, the missing police files, and any other morgu photographs that might have existed. And, of course, more information on Mary Jeanette Kelly's identity and background.

[GUT]

I'm suddenly curious about the original Haitian Declaration of Independence. It's missing? Somehow I think they would have saved that one. Also is there any suspicion it was changed since the 1790s?

If they ever found Joseph Smith's golden plates from Moroni, they should end up being put into the great Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, Utah. Somehow these may be more in the realm of phantasy, but if they should turn up...they'd be of considerable interest.

As for Moses's tablets - perhaps you saw Mel Brooks' "History of the World, Part I" where he showed what was the truth was concerning the fate of the original "fifteen" commandments!

The letter from Montie to his employer would also be of considerable interest to see if it turned up.

Jeff

Yes I understand the iriginal Hatiatian declaration is lost, I don't believe that there is any claim of tampering, but well sceptics are sceptical.

Where do you think I got the idea re Moses tablets from but the Great Mr Brooks, always hoped Part I would have a sequel.

[GUT]

This list covers lost literary works from Homer's comedy to Sylvia Plath's last, unfinished novel, so there is a good span of time covered in there.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-top-10-books-lost-to-time-83373197/

As a librarian and literature major, I'd enjoy seeing Homer's "Margites" and the lost Shakespeare play "Cardenio" the most, but all of the titles on the list are intriguing.

It's interesting to learn how we know of the existence of some of these works-- because other people mentioned them in letters or other writings.

For the Ripper case, I'd like to find the missing inquest reports, the missing police files, and any other morgu photographs that might have existed. And, of course, more information on Mary Jeanette Kelly's identity and background.

Anything by Will, as long as I found it $$$$$$$

[Mayerling]

Anything by Will, as long as I found it $$$$$$$

G'Day GUT,

Try to find the detective novel (with Gervaise Fen) by Edmund Crispin, "Love Lies Bleeding". You will find the story something you'd appreciate.

There is a list in "Wikipedia" of Lost Manuscripts that makes one really pause. By the way, we can expand this to lost movies (the complete versions of "The Magnificent Ambersoms" and of Von Stroheim's "Greed".

As for music - I'd wish somebody found the complete score of "Thespis, or, The Gods Grown Old" by Arthur Sullivan, (which was his contribution to the first Gilbert and Sullivan operetta). It's been lost (apparently) since the 1890s.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

This list covers lost literary works from Homer's comedy to Sylvia Plath's last, unfinished novel, so there is a good span of time covered in there.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/the-top-10-books-lost-to-time-83373197/

As a librarian and literature major, I'd enjoy seeing Homer's "Margites" and the lost Shakespeare play "Cardenio" the most, but all of the titles on the list are intriguing.

It's interesting to learn how we know of the existence of some of these works-- because other people mentioned them in letters or other writings.

For the Ripper case, I'd like to find the missing inquest reports, the missing police files, and any other morgu photographs that might have existed. And, of course, more information on Mary Jeanette Kelly's identity and background.

Hi Pat,

There is an argument that "Cardenio" may have been found - read the article on it by "Wikipedia". Charles Hamilton, the New York City autograph and rare book dealer, believed he found the play in the 1980s, and even published his investigation and the renamed version of the play in that decade. But it has not gotten universal acceptance as of yet.

Jeff

[GUT]

G'Day GUT,

Try to find the detective novel (with Gervaise Fen) by Edmund Crispin, "Love Lies Bleeding". You will find the story something you'd appreciate.

There is a list in "Wikipedia" of Lost Manuscripts that makes one really pause. By the way, we can expand this to lost movies (the complete versions of "The Magnificent Ambersoms" and of Von Stroheim's "Greed".

As for music - I'd wish somebody found the complete score of "Thespis, or, The Gods Grown Old" by Arthur Sullivan, (which was his contribution to the first Gilbert and Sullivan operetta). It's been lost (apparently) since the 1890s.

Jeff

Lost music, how about the mini disc's McCartney had stollen while in Nigeria recording Band on The Run.

[GUT]

Can't think of any lost movies.

[Mayerling]

Can't think of any lost movies.

The Marx Brothers only silent movie, "Humorisk" vanished shortly after it was made in 1925. It would be curious to see it, although Groucho admitted he didn't recall it was very good. But then, his specialty was his verbal wit, not mime (Harpo's specialty). So one wonders if Groucho was just "grouchy" about how the film did not do much for him.

Jeff