Do you think William Herbert Wallace was guilty?

[Graham]

What did you make the #1 French crime - Stavisky (was he a suicide, and what happened to the magistrate?), or the Dominici - Drummond Murders?

Jeff

Hmmm - interesting. The all-but-forgotten murder of John Cartland in March1973 is thought by some to have a link with the murders in France of Sir Jack Drummond in 1952, his secretary June Marshall in 1956, Sir Oliver Duncan in 1964, and Major Michael Lassetter in January 1973. All of these murdered men were active in the British SIS in France during WW2. In the case of John Cartland his son Jeremy was suspected of the murder by the French police, and it took him a long time to clear his name. (in fact, he has never been officially exonerated in France). Apart from Gaston Dominci who was sentenced to death for the murder of Sir Jack Drummond and later acquitted, no-one was ever brought to trial for any of these murders of former British intelligence officers. There may have been no link between any of them, of course, but if not then it seems quite a coincidence that their war-work was so alike. I do recall reading regarding the Cartland murder that it was thought a number of French former Nazis were out claiming revenge....

Sorry to go off thread.

Graham

PS: just remembered that Oliver Duncan was murdered in Italy.

[Pcdunn]

Clearly, you believe Julia Wallace was killed as part of a conspiracy i.e. Wallace involved others in executing his plan. This is one of the four verdicts you can bring in Move to Murder.

Hello, CCJ, and thank you.

I had never heard of this case before joining Casebook about a year and a half ago, but after reading the long thread here about it, looking at links to blogs and web materials, I can't shake the idea that Wallace deliberately built his alibi and reinforced it for a particular purpose.

Last year I saw a television mystery about a group of true crime enthusiasts who debated the Wallace case at a meeting-- shortly before one of their number was murdered in a way resembling the old case. All good fiction, of course, but interesting to think how this case has still caught the imagination.

[NickB]

In the accounts I have seen, when Wallace discussed the phone call with the people in the chess club they decided Menlove Gardens East must be somewhere near Menlove Avenue. So Wallace claimed he did not know there was any other Menlove Gardens road, but set out in the direction of Menlove Avenue.

Edgar Lustgarten’s ‘Verdict In Distpute’ is online.

https://archive.org/stream/verdictindispute00lustuoft/verdictindispute00lustuoft_djvu.txt

The Wallace case is about two thirds of the way down the page.

Wallace’s own account of the trial, with some pages missing, is also online.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SlCeBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT387&lpg=PT387&dq

One comment that struck me in this was: “It is quite evident to me that the murderer did not go upstairs at all.” Was he claiming that the bedroom was not ransacked but just in a normal state of untidiness?

[Graham]

A couple of small points:

- what was Julia Wallace's maiden name? I have seen it given as Thorp and also as Dennis.

- I've read that the police traced the telephone box from which 'Qualtrough' made the call to the chess club as being about 400 yards from Wallace's home. Is this correct? However, I understand that Mr Beattie, the man who actually took the call at the chess club, was convinced that the man calling himself 'Qualtrough' was not Wallace.

- maybe a barmy questiion, but did the police ever locate anyone in Liverpool by the name Qualtrough whose daughter had her 21st birthday party on the evening of the call to the chess club? I ask only because it seems to me that the police investigating this case were pretty good at making assumptions, but not so hot when it came to taking actual evidence from people who may have been involved.

- it seems to me that the mackintosh under Julia's body must have been placed there prior to her killing. If so, why? Surely not to prevent blood from contaminating whoever killed her? In this case, it should I think have been placed on top of her.

- the Court Of Criminal Appeal stated that the guilty verdict against Wallace was not 'supported by the evidence', and therefore the jury was wrong. This is a quite rare appeal judgment. Successful appeals are usually because the Appeal Court decides that there is new evidence, or that the judge at the original trial was in some way wrong in his summing-up and mis-directed the jury.

- regarding Nick B's post, Menlove Avenue is where John Lennon was brought up.

Graham





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[ColdCaseJury]

A couple of small points:

- maybe a barmy questiion, but did the police ever locate anyone in Liverpool by the name Qualtrough whose daughter had her 21st birthday party on the evening of the call to the chess club? I ask only because it seems to me that the police investigating this case were pretty good at making assumptions, but not so hot when it came to taking actual evidence from people who may have been involved.

-

Barmy or not, I undertook research when I wrote my book on this very topic. I found there was a Qualtrough living in Liverpool who had a 20th birthday on 19 January 1931.

Could Twentieth be mistaken on the phone as twenty-first?

Antony

[Graham]

Barmy or not, I undertook research when I wrote my book on this very topic. I found there was a Qualtrough living in Liverpool who had a 20th birthday on 19 January 1931.

Could Twentieth be mistaken on the phone as twenty-first?

Antony

Now this is spooky....did you ascertain if 'your' birthday-celebrating Qualtrough was male or female, as the caller to the chess club specifically mentioned 'his girl's' 21st? Whether it was a 20th or 21st birthday, I think it's more than mere coincidence - for a start, how common is or was the name Qualtrough in Liverpool? On a quick internet scan I found four or five people of that name living in Liverpool at the time. Including one who claimed he is the grandson of 'the' Qualtrough who made the call.....really?

Graham

[Spitfire]

.. for a start, how common is or was the name Qualtrough in Liverpool? On a quick internet scan I found four or five people of that name living in Liverpool at the time. Including one who claimed he is the grandson of 'the' Qualtrough who made the call.....really?

The name is of Manx origin and so relatively common in the Isle of Man. As Liverpool and the Manx capital, Douglas, were (and still are) connected by the excellent Isle of Man Steam Packet Company's ferry service, I would have thought that the name Qualtrough would known to quite a few Liverpuddlians.
Qualtrough

[Spitfire]

From the same site linked above a Qualtrough gives his opinionhere.

[Graham]

Qualtroughs (spelled like this) were also recorded as living in London in the 18th century. I believe the name is actually of Welsh origin, with the first syllable 'Qual' being a 'heard' version of the Welsh 'Gwil'. It's actually probably not all that uncommon.

Graham

[ColdCaseJury]

Now this is spooky....did you ascertain if 'your' birthday-celebrating Qualtrough was male or female, as the caller to the chess club specifically mentioned 'his girl's' 21st? Whether it was a 20th or 21st birthday, I think it's more than mere coincidence - for a start, how common is or was the name Qualtrough in Liverpool? On a quick internet scan I found four or five people of that name living in Liverpool at the time. Including one who claimed he is the grandson of 'the' Qualtrough who made the call.....really?

Graham

There were approximately 12 families in Liverpool at the time with the surname Qualtrough. The Qualtrough celebrating a 20th birthday was female. She later married, and died in 1970s. At the time of the call, however, her biological father was already dead. I do not know whether her mother had remarried at the time. And there was nobody called R. M. Qualtrough in Liverpool at the time.

[Pcdunn]

Article re the Wallace murder at Qualtrough family site

From the same site linked above a Qualtrough gives his opinionhere.

Yes, that is a splendid article, and I found it very interesting. Highly recommended.

[Spitfire]

Qualtroughs (spelled like this) were also recorded as living in London in the 18th century. I believe the name is actually of Welsh origin, with the first syllable 'Qual' being a 'heard' version of the Welsh 'Gwil'. It's actually probably not all that uncommon.

Graham

In Britain for the period 1840 to 1920 there were 620 registered births with the surname Qualtrough of which 385 were registered in the Isle of Man, 52 in Lancashire and only two in London.

[harry]

No one could give directions to,or advise on Menlove Gardens East,as it didn't exist,but one could assume an existence by knowing of Menlove Gardens North,South,and West.That is possible,but as was proved,familiarity with the three known ones raised the probability of knowing Menlove Gardens East was non existant.Proved by the witnesses Wallace spoke to.

The fact that there was a bath in the Wallace house,by no means meant it had to have been used to remove bloodstains.A much quicker method w as a wash down,standind in a small portable tub or bath.In those times normally made of tin.Used it myself in younger days, in a cottage with no builtin bath or shower.
With newspaper underneath to absorve spillage,which could then be burnt.Afterwards the bath water flushed down the toilet.Time needed,five minutes if in a hurry,and five minutes maximum to dress.Well within the 14 minutes police estimated Wallace would have had.

A 1931 jury would have been well aware of this method,I doubt a 2016 one would.

[GUT]

No one could give directions to,or advise on Menlove Gardens East,as it didn't exist,but one could assume an existence by knowing of Menlove Gardens North,South,and West.That is possible,but as was proved,familiarity with the three known ones raised the probability of knowing Menlove Gardens East was non existant.Proved by the witnesses Wallace spoke to.

The fact that there was a bath in the Wallace house,by no means meant it had to have been used to remove bloodstains.A much quicker method w as a wash down,standind in a small portable tub or bath.In those times normally made of tin.Used it myself in younger days, in a cottage with no builtin bath or shower.
With newspaper underneath to absorve spillage,which could then be burnt.Afterwards the bath water flushed down the toilet.Time needed,five minutes if in a hurry,and five minutes maximum to dress.Well within the 14 minutes police estimated Wallace would have had.

A 1931 jury would have been well aware of this method,I doubt a 2016 one would.

We didn't even have a flushing loo for the water, just tossed it on the lawn, or garden.

[Ginger]

There's a nice map of the area at http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/447...38879/-2.90509 .