Do you think William Herbert Wallace was guilty?

[AmericanSherlock]

I'm suspicious that Wallace wasn't more suspicious, if that makes sense. As I've said before, he could be forgiven for not even following up on the Qualtrough business after making several hundred calls that day alone in working hours. A query that could only be responded to by going to an unknown location from a "client" who could have easily contacted WHW at his job or home, you would think might raise a red flag to him that he was being set up for something unsavory. At the very least, you would expect him to carefully look up the address before going if he went at all.

[AmericanSherlock]

I have perused Murphy again and I have to say I think his book makes a joke of most of the other theories on this case. It really is the most effective argument for a position on this case out there IMO. CCJ's book is a great summation and John Gannon's is good for the most raw facts, but for "solving" the case, I think Murphy's is simply the best there is to date and it sort of embarrasses some of the earlier ideas out there, like Jonathan Goodman's flawed attempt or Roger Wilkes'

Not that it is a perfect book; he is a bit guilty of being singular and he believes in WHW's guilt to a degree beyond mine (he would convict in a court of law it seems.) There is some airbrushing of some suspicious things pointing away from WHW (mainly those that incriminate Parry like the caller mentioning a 21st birthday or the tight timing on the 20th for Wallace) Also, the book could have done with a more inspired title. The cover picture is actually a real early color photo of JW's battered corpse, which is a tad tasteless as a front cover IMO.

With those criticisms aside, it still, on the balance of all the facts and using some solid logic makes a very powerful case for WHW's guilt. It is difficult for me to see Wallace not being at least involved after reading Murphy, despite some niggling doubts characteristic of this confusing case.

The fact that Murphy was working with the entire police file and Goodman, Wilkes etc were not really compromises the comparative worth of their books IMO.

[AmericanSherlock]

The problem AS is that at least one other expert opined that the perpetrator must have got blood on their person, and considering an artery was cut, which would have resulted in blood spraying in every direction, this seems to me to be a sensible conclusion.

Dr McFall did make an error on time of death, but the simple fact is that time of death cannot be accurately estimated even by modern forensic experts. Nonetheless, as you point out, as he police doctor he clearly intended to do Wallace no favours-as evidenced by the fact he inexplicably altered his time of death estimate-and yet even he had to concede that the perpetrator was would have got blood on their person.

James Murphy's comments are interesting, however, he is not a forensic expert. What I think is required is for someone to employ a modern expert to re-evaluate the evidence, like Trevor Marriott in respect of the Whitechapel murders. Maybe this is something CCJ might consider!

Hi John, I'd love for there to be a modern forensic analysis of the case, but it seems the Wallace case seems to not hold as much interest as some others. It is odd for such an infamous case that is regarded as the "nonpareil" of all murder mysteries, but it seems a bit less well known/renowned than some other less historically celebrated cases. Maybe this is an American thing though.

[Harry D]

Just to show how unlucky I am. I was trying to make space so I gave around 25 true crime books to a local second hand bookshop. Then, thanks to this thread, I became fascinated with the Wallace case so I revisited the book shop hoping to buy back the Murphy book. Of the 25 books that I’d given to them only one had sold. Can you guess which one it was?

The Diary of Jack the Ripper?

[caz]

That’s kind of you Caz but I was talking to a friend last night who lives in the wilds of Scotland and is a true crime buff. He’s coming down to visit me in a couple of weeks and is bringing his copy with him. If he forgets, which knowing him is not at all unlikely, I’ll take you up on your kind offer. I’ll keep looking for a copy to buy though but definitely not for £45!

Do you have any info on the other two that I mentioned Caz? Are they worth getting if I can find a copy that I don’t need to sell a kidney for that is

Morning HS,

Hope your friend remembers. Tell him to tie a knot in something.

I'm afraid I'd never heard of those other two titles you mentioned. I've only read the Goodman, Murphy and Wilkes.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Diary of Jack the Ripper?

I didn’t give any of my Ripper books away Harry though many stand as monuments to wasted cash

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm suspicious that Wallace wasn't more suspicious, if that makes sense. As I've said before, he could be forgiven for not even following up on the Qualtrough business after making several hundred calls that day alone in working hours. A query that could only be responded to by going to an unknown location from a "client" who could have easily contacted WHW at his job or home, you would think might raise a red flag to him that he was being set up for something unsavory. At the very least, you would expect him to carefully look up the address before going if he went at all.

I’m definitely with on this point AS. Wallace, as we know, was an intelligent man; a man who gives the impression that he was the conventional, ‘by the book’ type. Faced with being given this message he would have faced a wave of questions:

How could a stranger know that he played chess at the club?

If he knew of Wallace as an Insurance Agent he would have known that he worked for the Pru so why didn’t he contact the company direct?

Why would he specifically ask for Wallace? A man he didn’t know.

If Qualtrough could track Wallace down to his chess club then surely he could have tracked him down to his house?

What would have been to prevent Wallace being ‘honourable’ and passing the potential commission on to an agent for whom Menlove Gardens was part of his regular round?

Why would Qualtrough assume that Wallace was the type to attend an out of hours meeting? Or that he wouldn’t have been otherwise occupied?

Why wasn’t Wallace more suspicious about the fact that no one, not even a chess club member who lived in the area, had heard of Menlove Gardens East?

In any case, of course, we can be guilty of projecting our own thoughts and doubts on to someone who might have thought differently. With all that we know of Wallace though he would surely have been alarmed by all these red flags? I for one certainly would have been. I find this suspicious. I also find Wallace’s search for MGE suspicious. I find the crime scene suspicious. I find Wallace’s behaviour at the crime scene suspicious. In fact it would be fair to say that I’m....suspicious.

[RodCrosby]

I’m definitely with on this point AS. Wallace, as we know, was an intelligent man; a man who gives the impression that he was the conventional, ‘by the book’ type. Faced with being given this message he would have faced a wave of questions:

How could a stranger know that he played chess at the club?
1. Wallace was a well-known insurance agent. Several fellow club members lived near Menlove Gardens. Someone might have told "Qualtrough" that an insurance agent (Wallace) could possibly be contacted by telephone at the club...

If he knew of Wallace as an Insurance Agent he would have known that he worked for the Pru so why didn’t he contact the company direct?
2. Everyone knew the Pru employed hundreds of field agents. They were NOT office-based...

Why would he specifically ask for Wallace? A man he didn’t know.
3. See 1..

If Qualtrough could track Wallace down to his chess club then surely he could have tracked him down to his house?
4. Menlove Gardens is a long way from Wolverton Street, and a telephone is handier...

What would have been to prevent Wallace being ‘honourable’ and passing the potential commission on to an agent for whom Menlove Gardens was part of his regular round?
5. That was NOT company procedure. See Crewe...

Why would Qualtrough assume that Wallace was the type to attend an out of hours meeting? Or that he wouldn’t have been otherwise occupied?
6. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

Why wasn’t Wallace more suspicious about the fact that no one, not even a chess club member who lived in the area, had heard of Menlove Gardens East?
7. They DID know of Menlove Gardens, and said so...

In any case, of course, we can be guilty of projecting our own thoughts and doubts on to someone who might have thought differently. With all that we know of Wallace though he would surely have been alarmed by all these red flags? I for one certainly would have been. I find this suspicious. I also find Wallace’s search for MGE suspicious. I find the crime scene suspicious. I find Wallace’s behaviour at the crime scene suspicious. In fact it would be fair to say that I’m....suspicious.
Yawn...

So boring correcting factual inaccuracies, and logical flaws, yet again.
Good luck with your book search....

[John G]

Hi John,

I’m no expert on blood spray at crime scenes but when I look at the crime scene photos I don’t see massive amounts of blood around the room although I accept that the quality of the period photography might not be too helpful. What I’m saying is that it wasn’t a case of the scene looking like someone was hosepiping blood around the room. There’s blood around Julia’s head of course but if you look at the photograph that looks toward the door I can see no other blood, granted the furniture is dark but the carpet is light. I see none on the wall or mirror or ornaments and I can see none on the piano keys or the music score. The table in front of the piano looks blood free to me too.
Now obviously there was blood in various parts of the room but it’s not exactly Miller’s Court. And so my point is that if the killer was expected to be drenched in blood there would surely be more blood at the scene? On the carpet between Julia’s head and the sideboard near to the door for example. Surely it’s not impossible that the killer didn’t get as much blood on him as might have been suspected by the experts? After all, none of them considered the possibility that the killer might have used the mackintosh as a shield. He might even have put it over her head to make the first blow knocking her to the floor (as I think AS has suggested.) Then when she was on the floor, unconscious or semi-conscious, he drapes the mackintosh over his left arm and bludgeons her with his right.
I’d also reiterate the point that whoever killed her, if he did get blood on him, was surely likely to have cleaned up as it seems unlikely that the killer could have rummaged around and yet left no blood traces (apart from on the notes upstairs and the blood clot on the toilet bowl.) If that is the case then I’d suggest that Wallace was the only one that would have had to have cleaned up. Parry could have walked to his car in the dark with it being unlikely in the extreme that anyone would have noticed blood stains.

Hi HS,

But using the Macintosh as a shield would have been a hair-brained idea. There's simply no way that he could have hoped to deflect the blood as it spurred out of an artery, unless he had speed of light reflexes! Moreover, a Macintosh "shield" would have protected significantly less of his person than wearing the garment.

Regarding the blood splatter, any impression we get from a grainy photograph cannot possibly take precedence over the conclusions of a forensic expert who viewed the crime scene in person.

That said, if you want to challenge the medical evidence you might want to consider how thoroughly Wallace was examined. For instance, when asked if Wallace had any blood on him, Superintendent Moore replied: "I examined him pretty well, his boots, hands, and the bottom of his trousers."

Now, "pretty well" isn't exactly an unequivocal statement. Moreover, it appears that he wasn't asked to remove his socks and shoes, so any suggestion that the perpetrator may have got blood on his feet and shins may be, in relation to Wallace, academic.

However, none of this explains how he avoided getting blood on his hair and face. Unless he really did have lightning quick reflexes, of course!

[John G]

So boring correcting factual inaccuracies, and logical flaws, yet again.
Good luck with your book search....

Hi Rod,

What's your opinion of the forensic evidence?

[AmericanSherlock]

So boring correcting factual inaccuracies, and logical flaws, yet again.
Good luck with your book search....

How is your solo aviation career going, big guy?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The ego has landed!

Point one: ‘Might’ being an important word. Why wouldn’t Wallace, assuming that he felt that a colleague had given Qualtrough the info as you suggest, have been at all suspicious that Qualtrough didn’t offer his business to that colleague. But he’d rather contact a complete stranger whose home address he was unaware of.

Point two: The agents weren’t office-based but the company was! Qualtrough could undoubtedly phoned the company. How else did people take out policies? Did the company rely purely on word of mouth?! Come on Rod, keep up.

Point three: ‘See 1’ answers nothing unless you can’t read. Your point about how Qualtrough might have heard of Wallace doesn’t answer the question of why he would specifically want Wallace over any other agent (especially if he had on standing in front of him! Was Wallace such an Insurance Legend that someone might insist on him above all other agents! A child could understand this Rod.

Point four: Is this a serious answer. It’s not further away by telephone! If he could find out the chess club phone number he could surely have found out Wallace’s home number. Via the Pru perhaps? Alternatively, why didn’t he just ask a member of the club if they had Wallace’s phone number (Caird might have known it at least.)

Point five: Grow up Rod! Would Qualtrough have known Prudential company procedure? Of course not! There’s absolutely no way that he could have been certain that Wallace might not have passed the work onto a colleague who lived more locally.

Point Six: So in a plan to murder Julia he just left it to chance. That might make sense in RodWorld but not in the real one.

Point seven: Do I need to reply? But they didn’t know Menlove Gardens East!

There is no one more boring than you Rod. You’re tiring drivel keeps resurfacing like a bad smell. Your opinion doesn’t count. It’s worthless. All ego but no substance. As I’ve just shown ‘logic’ is a foreign country to you. Stick to loitering on pub car parks.......yawn.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS,

But using the Macintosh as a shield would have been a hair-brained idea. There's simply no way that he could have hoped to deflect the blood as it spurred out of an artery, unless he had speed of light reflexes! Moreover, a Macintosh "shield" would have protected significantly less of his person than wearing the garment.

Regarding the blood splatter, any impression we get from a grainy photograph cannot possibly take precedence over the conclusions of a forensic expert who viewed the crime scene in person.

That said, if you want to challenge the medical evidence you might want to consider how thoroughly Wallace was examined. For instance, when asked if Wallace had any blood on him, Superintendent Moore replied: "I examined him pretty well, his boots, hands, and the bottom of his trousers."

Now, "pretty well" isn't exactly an unequivocal statement. Moreover, it appears that he wasn't asked to remove his socks and shoes, so any suggestion that the perpetrator may have got blood on his feet and shins may be, in relation to Wallace, academic.

However, none of this explains how he avoided getting blood on his hair and face. Unless he really did have lightning quick reflexes, of course!

I disagree John. He could have draped it over his left arm, held it in front of him at chin level and struck the blows with his right. The only part of him in danger of blood spatter would have been his face and right hand. Even then it couldn’t be taken as a certainty that blood would have spurted specifically at his face. As I’ve suggested before added to the mackintosh as a shield he could have just been lucky. And even if he did get some blood on his face he could have cleaned it off. And as there was no significant amount of blood outside of the Parlour this has to be a possibility.

[John G]

I'm suspicious that Wallace wasn't more suspicious, if that makes sense. As I've said before, he could be forgiven for not even following up on the Qualtrough business after making several hundred calls that day alone in working hours. A query that could only be responded to by going to an unknown location from a "client" who could have easily contacted WHW at his job or home, you would think might raise a red flag to him that he was being set up for something unsavory. At the very least, you would expect him to carefully look up the address before going if he went at all.

But how many hoax calls would Wallace have experienced in his career? I'm willing to bet that the answer is zero. Why would they visit him at home? How would they know his address? The fact that extremely short notice was given would explain why he wasn't contacted at work. And how frequently would Wallace have checked-in with his office? Considering the short notice, how would he have carefully looked up the address. Considering that he was familiar with the Menlove Estate, why would he have needed to carefully look up the address? Particularly as Wallace himself pointed out, "I belong to Liverpool, and I have a tongue in my head. I'll find out."

[Herlock Sholmes]

But how many hoax calls would Wallace have experienced in his career? I'm willing to bet that the answer is zero. Why would they visit him at home? How would they know his address? The fact that extremely short notice was given would explain why he wasn't contacted at work. And how frequently would Wallace have checked-in with his office? Considering the short notice, how would he have carefully looked up the address. Considering that he was familiar with the Menlove Estate, why would he have needed to carefully look up the address? Particularly as Wallace himself pointed out, "I belong to Liverpool, and I have a tongue in my head. I'll find out."

Surely it’s more likely John that a potential client would be more likely to find out his home address than the chess club?