Mort à Claybury

[Pontius2000]

Hutch is Hutch and Joe is Joe and n'er the twain shall meet
Because to make it FlemingGeorge is rather no small feat
The proctor at ye Olde Vic House would have a hopping fit
To follow Joe no George I mean as bed to bed he flit

Roy

better be careful posting such or someone may tell you to "read more" into far-fetched theories.

can you write up some poetic lines indicating that Polly Poll was hard to locate and uncooperative because she was, in fact, Jill the Ripper? I believe she actually killed Tabram while the colonel was being occupied by that fictitious Hutchinson dressed in drag.

[claire]

(Can you imagine if anyone really wanted to keep fighting on a "creative writing" thread?)

You want to see the quills at dawn at the Poetry Society AGM. Bloody, I tell you; bloody

[caz]

Hi Ben,

If you are alllowed your comic prose, you can hardly dictate that everyone else must go back to "poerty".

How's this for comedy? What gives it a touch of genius is that you don't even know you are writing it:

'Or unless he knew there was a far better than average chance of his real identity not being discovered, which considering the era in which the police were operating, was almost guaranteed to be the case, even if he was kept under surveillance... If he used an alias from the outset and/or generally kept himself to himself, there was very little chance of being “exposed” by a putative surveillance team...

...Of course, none of this means that the police “left themselves with no means of getting hold of Hutch's arse again”. At least, this isn’t something I’ve ever suggested...

...I submit only that in Hutchinson’s case, we have an unknown local man who was seen loitering outside a crime scene, and who lied about his reasons for being there.'

And there you have it: a truly unknown man, in pretty much every sense, who can be Fleming when we want him to be Fleming and Hutch when we want him to be Hutch, because he had an almost guaranteed ability to keep his real identity from being discovered, and very little chance of being "exposed" if he 'kept himself to himself'. And what's more, he knew it.

So does this truly unknown man keep himself to himself? Does he bollocks. He voluntarily "exposes" himself to an interrogation by the cops, admitting his presence near the latest murder scene and lying about why he was there. And the cops are now left with the means of getting hold of him again, when they'd have had no chance - according to you - of even identifying the twit, never mind locating him and bringing his arse in for questioning as a suspect, if only he'd kept himself to himself.

I love the mental dexterity of this whole argument - it has bordered on farce for the longest time, but now it has taken a great leap forward.

Are you by any chance auditioning for "Whoops, there go my trousers" this festive season?

Love,

Caz
X

[DVV]

There was a mad killer called Fleming
Who went to the cops like a lemming
He pretended to be Hutch...
This is all a bit much

Caz

Hi Caz,

for those who don't believe Toppy was Hutch, no, this "isn't all a bit much".
Hutch said he knew Mary for about 3 years.
Just like Fleming.
Hutch said he used to give money to Mary at times.
Venturney : "Joe used to give her money..."
Both Hutch and Fleming were dossing inthe VH.

Were they one and the same guy ?
Why not ?
In any case, I've seen far more outlandish theories on boards.

Amitiés
David

[Ben]

In any case, I've seen far more outlandish theories on boards.

Of course, David.

I rather suspect that the latest attack mode embraced by some is more of a personal nature and has less to do with Hutchinson or Fleming than first appearances might suggest.

[Ben]

Ah, well…

Didn’t really think for one moment that certain parties could even begin to resist the temptation to embrace my suggestion to return to the light-hearted poetic spirit with which Dave initiated the discussion, so it looks like we’re back to Ben-bothering instead. Good. So I’m all set for lots of lovely long posts, a battle of stamina, and the terrifically fun game of “Who gets the last word?”. My money’s on me.

“If you are alllowed your comic prose, you can hardly dictate that everyone else must go back to "poerty”

Oh, that joke again? The exact same joke you made in your last post, and the exact same little emoticon. How fun. Only this time, you’ve made an even more hilarious joke about a typo I made, despite you writing “alllowed” in the same sentence. Seriously though, if I’m still doing that sort of thing when I’m in my late 50s, I'll need someone put me out of my obvious misery.

“And there you have it: a truly unknown man, in pretty much every sense, who can be Fleming when we want him to be Fleming and Hutch when we want him to be Hutch”

Again, I’m not remotely insistent that Fleming must have been Hutchinson, so I can only assume you have some unsuccessfully belittling motive in implying that I am. Hutchinson remains an "unknown local man" inasmuch as his identity has yet to be established. The only difference with this particular "ULM" is that a case can be made for his proximity to, and preoccupation with, a crime scene shortly before the commission of that crime, and that he then lied about his reasons for being there. If his real identity was Joseph Fleming – and I concede that we’re dealing with a fairly hefty “if” – he would have had a reasonable degree of assurance that his two-month tenure in the Whitechapel district ensured that he wasn’t well known there. If he used the alias “James Evans” in the early 1890s, it isn’t a stretch to fathom that he could also have been using one in the late 1880s, i.e. when he moved into Whitechapel.

If, however, he was recognised subsequently by Sarah Lewis, dragged in as a suspect and compared to previous eyewitness sightings (which Hutchinson had every reason to be twitchy about given the latest suppression of evidence at the Eddowes inquest), he would have found himself in poo city irrespective of his identity. Any failure on the part of the police to connect him with Joseph Fleming would hardly have made any difference to the fate of the “George Hutchinson” incarnation.

That’s assuming, of course, that fear was the primary motivational factor. It’s equally plausible that he simply recognised an opportunity in the wake of Lewis’ evidence, and sought to take advantage of it.

Again, you persist in the delusion that a “truly unknown men” will always “keep himself to himself”, whereas in the real world, serial offenders (and criminals in general) have approached their police pursuers with the intention of diverting the case in a false direction. The fact that you don’t consider the proposal plausible is not really a problem for the reality that it has occurred, nor is it a problem that you consider the suggestion a "farce". Why do you keep saying that the police left themselves with no means of locating Hutchinson again? This was never my contention. I said they would have been unable to convert any suspicions they had into proof of either guilt or innocence, not that they allowed themselves to lose track of him altogether.

“Are you by any chance auditioning for "Whoops, there go my trousers" this festive season?”

Nope, but they’re scouting for someone to play the Dotty Dame.

Boom!

[Ben]

Didn’t really think for one moment that certain parties could even begin to resist the temptation to embrace my suggestion to return to the light-hearted poetic spirit with which Dave initiated the discussion

Correction:

Didn’t really think for one moment that certain parties were even remotely willing to embrace my suggestion to return to the light-hearted poetic spirit with which Dave initiated the discussion

[Garry Wroe]

Just out of interest, has anyone ever seen an official document (other than Hutchinson's police statement) on which an individual has applied three signatures, each radically different in form and style to the other two? If so, might you be so kind as to provide me with the details of the said document?

Thanks in advance.

Garry Wroe.

[Pontius2000]

Hi Caz,

for those who don't believe Toppy was Hutch, no, this "isn't all a bit much".
Hutch said he knew Mary for about 3 years.
Just like Fleming.
Hutch said he used to give money to Mary at times.
Venturney : "Joe used to give her money..."
Both Hutch and Fleming were dossing inthe VH.

Were they one and the same guy ?
Why not ?
In any case, I've seen far more outlandish theories on boards.

Amitiés
David

I think the argument now has nothing to do with Toppy, and moreso to do with whether or not the witness George Hutchinson existed. that's the far-fetched part....that the murderer would actually inject himself into the investigation when he was not the least bit suspected. then take on an alias, which he would use for at least 23 years, and give the police an account which is almost unbelievable. by reading the account of Abberline's "interrogation" of Hutchinson, it seems that the police at first did not totally believe his story. so this, if he were actually the murderer, would have certainly put him at a lot of undue risk. for a guy who committed these crimes and has remained unknown for 120+ years, this would seem very careless.

as for them giving Kelly money...she was a prostitute who was said to be at least somewhat attractive. I imagine A LOT of men gave her money.

[Ben]

and moreso to do with whether or not the witness George Hutchinson existed. that's the far-fetched part

Indeed. Good job nobody has ever suggested as much.

....that the murderer would actually inject himself into the investigation when he was not the least bit suspected.

But then this is what serial killers have been known to do on occasions, as you'll discover if you conduct some rudimentary research on the subject. I have an article impending in which many of these are discussed.

then take on an alias, which he would use for at least 23 years

No. This is where you must be getting confused. Nobody has ever suggested that Fleming would have been required to retain his alias for 23 years. Where are you getting this idea from?

and give the police an account which is almost unbelievable. by reading the account of Abberline's "interrogation" of Hutchinson, it seems that the police at first did not totally believe his story.

No. It was the other way round. Abberline initially believed him, but the doubts surfaced very shortly thereafter.

so this, if he were actually the murderer, would have certainly put him at a lot of undue risk. for a guy who committed these crimes and has remained unknown for 120+ years, this would seem very careless.

Not a great argument I'm afraid.

The killer had a demonstrated capacity for extreme risk, and yet you argue that the proposed pre-emptive contact with the police was too risky. What has "120+ years" got to do with it? He could hardly have affected the situation for the vast majority of those 120+ years, could he?

[DVV]

as for them giving Kelly money...she was a prostitute who was said to be at least somewhat attractive. I imagine A LOT of men gave her money.

That's not the way Fleming and Hutch are supposed to have helped her, Pontius.
As for "a lot of men" giving her money, well, it doesn't seem so. Attractive or not, she was penniless.

Amitiés
David

[Roy Corduroy]

can you write up some poetic lines indicating that Polly Poll was hard

Be careful down the alley
Where you go with Pearly Poll
You may find her equipment
Is not what you thought at all

Roy

[DVV]

Hi Roy

what happened with lines 1 and 3 ?

Amitiés
David

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning David,

what happened with lines 1 and 3 ?

I can see them. Can you not see them on your screen? Let me know and I will gladly re-poetize for your convenience.

Fleming and Hutch are supposed to have helped her

If one believe's George Hutchinson's account, then it weighs against Joe Fleming killing her. Because Hutch saw the foreign toff with her.

But if you don't believe George Hutchinson's story, then you needn't concern yourself with it such as " I knew her." What Hutch said becomes irrelevant.

Again, Fleming -Hutch, it's time for separation.

Break the hypnotic Hutchlike spell you have been under, David. Soar free and clear above the clouds with Joe Fleming.

Roy

[claire]

Be careful going down the alley
With good old Pearly Poll.
When you start to get all pally,
You'll find the alley is not one at all.