Ripperologist 127: August 2012

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

The criteria for custody is irrelevant. In your article you make it clear that Magistrate Hannay could not tri the case, but could only hear the case. Central Criminal Court was required to tri the case, so 'held for trial' occurred AFTER Hannay committed the case to Central Criminal Court.

Sincerely,
Mike

Nice try Mike

Your wording "held for trial" is correct but you understanding of it is incorrcet

It is clear you still have not read the article thoroughly with regard to committal or if you have you do not fully understand it.

It is fact that if a committal could not be completed in one court sitting then the magistrate had the power to adjourn proceedings and remand the prisoner in custody for not more than 8 days and then bring him back to complete the committal.

Work the days out from November 7th-14th

Tumblety was therefore committed on the 14th "in custody" and then bailed on 16th.

So if he was committed in custody on the 14th he must have been in custody up until then.

[mariab]

The book was kinda forced on me Maria.
The timescales were unrealistic without the complications I personally endured. To be honest though, my heart is in another book I'm working on which I hope will see the light of day, as I think it will be worth reading.

That's real cool, hope it's done soon, and that it's about the police.

Thieving b'stard.

If already the rocks are disappearing from the sites, no wonder that so many sources are unaccounted for. ;-)

[Monty]

Thieving b'stard.

Presarving history fella.

Monty

[Supe]

And, as I type, I'm looking across at a piece of Burgho and Barnabys kennel tile. Yes, I took a souviner from Scalby Manor.

Thieving b'stard.

There but for the grace of God go most Ripperologists.

Don.

[Rob Clack]

And, as I type, I'm looking across at a piece of Burgho and Barnabys kennel tile. Yes, I took a souviner from Scalby Manor.

Monty

Thieving b'stard.

[Monty]

Neil,

Poor Don Souden waited patiently for my Brough photos so he could complete his NIR work, I think he has now figured why I was so late.

LOL. Clearly you were juggling several balls at once, but all's well. You got your Rip stuff done and your photos (and vignette of your getting the "bum's rush" from Scalby Manor) put the finishing touches on what I still think was a darn good and comprehensive article in NIR about the bloodhounds.

Don.

I think its the definitive piece on the subject Don.

I certtainly do not recall such a detailed examination and presentation on Brough and the use/history of Bloodhounds.

I reccomend it to anyone who wishes to know more on the subject.

And, as I type, I'm looking across at a piece of Burgho and Barnabys kennel tile. Yes, I took a souviner from Scalby Manor.

Monty

[Supe]

Neil,

Poor Don Souden waited patiently for my Brough photos so he could complete his NIR work, I think he has now figured why I was so late.

LOL. Clearly you were juggling several balls at once, but all's well. You got your Rip stuff done and your photos (and vignette of your getting the "bum's rush" from Scalby Manor) put the finishing touches on what I still think was a darn good and comprehensive article in NIR about the bloodhounds.

Don.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

I'm playing the interested bystander here.

Which cherries did Trevor leave on the tree?

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

The book was kinda forced on me Maria.

The timescales were unrealistic without the complications I personally endured. To be honest though, my heart is in another book I'm working on which I hope will see the light of day, as I think it will be worth reading.

Monty

[mariab]

Some of the Merrick piece I was going to use for a book entitled 'Bloody Leicester'

Are you getting all Hull on us, Monty? ;-)

(Just teasing, and hopefully you'll write that book at some point later on.)

[mklhawley]

Three points:

(1) There is no record of Tumblety mentioning this big mistake, but that doesn't prove he never did so.


(2) Committal proceedings are a stage on the journey to the higher court, so the difference, if a 'Not Guilty' plea has been entered, is chronological only.

(3) I have disagreed with Trevor on very many occasions, but I thought his article was well-presented and structured in its approach. He didn't (as I read it) claim that Tumblety couldn't be JtR, only that, if JtR killed all MacNaghten's canonical five victims, that individual could not, on the available evidence, be Francis Tumblety. I think that was an entirely rational conclusion to draw on the balance of probabilities.

Trevor's article has been somewhat damned with faint praise. That saddens me because I think it deserved better. It gets an unequivocal "Well Done" from me.

Regards, Bridewell.

Bridewell,

Your mistake is 'on the balance of probabilities'. As I stated earlier, in terms of logic his argument was quite valid (i.e., convincing) but it is not sound. I don't expect you to know there the cherry picking has occurred because you don't research Tumblety. Enjoy my next posts.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Monty]

Further to my last. I've read Ripperologist 127 from start to end. I thoroughly enjoyed all of it. Neil & Rob's Wall-Writing got top billing and rightly so.

I'm embarrassed to say that, despite living in the county, I'd completely forgotten that Joseph Merrick was born in Leicester and that he was still only in his twenties when he died. Life dealt him a cruel hand, but he lived a life of great dignity despite his appalling circumstances.

Well done to all concerned. Rip 127 will be a hard act to follow.

Regards, Bridewell.

Top billing?

Why of course dear boy.

I'm joshing. I think John and Cris deserve great praise for their article. Its so good I've re read it a few times now.

As for Merrick, having two works in one Rip is something I'm quite proud of. Poor Don Souden waited patiently for my Brough photos so he could comple his NIR work, I think he has now figured why I was so late.

Some of the Merrick piece I was going to use for a book entitled 'Bloody Leicester' but alas if fell through, so I used bits of that.

I think the Rip subscribers have been very spoilt with this issue.

Monty

[Monty]

Colin,

I disagree, I think it has been received with good praise, and analysed as it should be.

Trevors statement that all the victims were committed by the same hand (which contradicts what he has said in the past) seems to be a requirement entered so that if Tumbelty is shown to be incarcerated at the time of the Kelly murder, then he must be absolved completely as a suspect.

As Rob points out, this is loaded.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Further to my last. I've read Ripperologist 127 from start to end. I thoroughly enjoyed all of it. Neil & Rob's Wall-Writing got top billing and rightly so.

I'm embarrassed to say that, despite living in the county, I'd completely forgotten that Joseph Merrick was born in Leicester and that he was still only in his twenties when he died. Life dealt him a cruel hand, but he lived a life of great dignity despite his appalling circumstances.

Well done to all concerned. Rip 127 will be a hard act to follow.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Trevor's Article

Hi Jonathan,
Its interesting that Tumblety comments about the stupidity of the police but would have failed to mention this big mistake. ...unless it never happened.
Sincerely,
Mike

Three points:

(1) There is no record of Tumblety mentioning this big mistake, but that doesn't prove he never did so.

I agree, but then again 'held on remand to await committal' is different than 'held for trial'.

(2) Committal proceedings are a stage on the journey to the higher court, so the difference, if a 'Not Guilty' plea has been entered, is chronological only.

(3) I have disagreed with Trevor on very many occasions, but I thought his article was well-presented and structured in its approach. He didn't (as I read it) claim that Tumblety couldn't be JtR, only that, if JtR killed all MacNaghten's canonical five victims, that individual could not, on the available evidence, be Francis Tumblety. I think that was an entirely rational conclusion to draw on the balance of probabilities.

Trevor's article has been somewhat damned with faint praise. That saddens me because I think it deserved better. It gets an unequivocal "Well Done" from me.

Regards, Bridewell.