Ripperologist 112

[Monty]

Monty,

The other day you said there was something in your article you wanted my take on. What specific part? Page #? You've piqued my curiosity!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

This.

[Monty]

All,

Just an interesting aside.

The image Stewart kindly provided, see below, has in interesting caption note with regard the photo of Moor Lane station which mentions a poster regarding the 7th Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers.......the very same battalion Brown was the Medical Officer in Charge.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Monty,

My apologies, I assumed there was something Stride-related in there I had missed, since that's the only topic anyone asks my opinion on, and rarely even then. I can't say I personally have much to say about this other than I would very much liked to have been a fly on the wall in those meetings.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

Further to my earlier post as to what a Victorian surgeon would have worn, I would point to another painting by American medical artist Thomas Eakins (1844-1916). Unlike Eakins' painting, The Gross Clinic, 1875, where the surgeons appear to be all wearing their regular street clothes, including frock coats and ties, in this later painting, The Agnew Clinic, 1889, the surgeons all appear to be wearing specialized white garb more like the scrubs we would expect for modern surgeons. Please note also that none of the men who are operating appear to be wearing ties, in contrast to the doctors or residents watching the procedure. The man at left clad in white is retiring professor of surgery Dr. D. Hayes Agnew of University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, and students at the school commissioned Eakins to do the painting of the retiring professor. He might or might not be wearing a white apron or it could be a white smock. See also this portrait of Prof. Agnew in isolation which gives another perhaps clearer view of his attire. I am seeking some advice from a medical historian into this matter of what Dr. Brown likely would have worn when operating or in performing a postmortem.

Best regards

Chris George

[Natalie Severn]

Hi all

Further to my earlier post as to what a Victorian surgeon would have worn, I would point to another painting by American medical artist Thomas Eakins (1844-1916). Unlike Eakins' painting, The Gross Clinic, 1875, where the surgeons appear to be all wearing their regular street clothes, including frock coats and ties, in this later painting, The Agnew Clinic, 1889, the surgeons all appear to be wearing specialized white garb more like the scrubs we would expect for modern surgeons. Please note also that none of the men who are operating appear to be wearing ties, in contrast to the doctors or residents watching the procedure. The man at left clad in white is retiring professor of surgery Dr. D. Hayes Agnew of University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia, and students at the school commissioned Eakins to do the painting of the retiring professor. He might or might not be wearing a white apron or it could be a white smock. See also this portrait of Prof. Agnew in isolation which gives another perhaps clearer view of his attire. I am seeking some advice from a medical historian into this matter of what Dr. Brown likely would have worn when operating or in performing a postmortem.

Best regards

Chris George

Hi Chris,
I dont really think it to be a case of whether or not the surgeons wore aprons like a cook"s.
To me the issue is whether ,when such a surgeon was clearly not engaged in carrying out a surgical procedure,he would have worn it for a group police photo.Why would he do that? Surely he would have taken it off and put a jacket and tie on for a photo that included himself? Also would a police surgeon have been happy to pose "on the sidelines"?
I suppose if this was a very informal photo , they could have just caught him "on the hoof" ,but even then I rather think he would have removed his apron.
Talking of hooves maybe this chap was their regular vet and had popped in to tend a sick police horse in the stables? If he was down in the hay when they called him, maybe he rushed out half dressed and got nabbed for this photo call.

[harry]

A closer observation of the apron type garment worn over the shirt,reveals it to be,if my sight is to be trusted,similar to the top portion of todays bib and brace overall.It appears to end about the midriff.Having seen similar style of outer covering,I too lean toward a cook.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris,
I dont really think it to be a case of whether or not the surgeons wore aprons like a cook"s.
To me the issue is whether ,when such a surgeon was clearly not engaged in carrying out a surgical procedure,he would have worn it for a group police photo.Why would he do that? Surely he would have taken it off and put a jacket and tie on for a photo that included himself? Also would a police surgeon have been happy to pose "on the sidelines"?
I suppose if this was a very informal photo , they could have just caught him "on the hoof" ,but even then I rather think he would have removed his apron.
Talking of hooves maybe this chap was their regular vet and had popped in to tend a sick police horse in the stables? If he was down in the hay when they called him, maybe he rushed out half dressed and got nabbed for this photo call.

Thanks, Nats. It does occur to me that if the man in the photograph is Dr Brown, he might be dressed to carry out a postmortem at a nearby mortuary, possibly. Your point is well made, however.

How eccentric was Dr Brown? He appears to be a bit of a natty guy in those 1888 sketches, with the upturned and probably waxed moustache.

I agree that most surgeons would probably want to be dressed in their best clothes for such a photograph but if Dr Brown had a bit of an eccentric bent perhaps he would not have minded being dressed this way. The coppers were wearing their work clothes, he was wearing his.

Chris

[Stewart P Evans]

Objective

Thanks, Nats. It does occur to me that if the man in the photograph is Dr Brown, he might be dressed to carry out a postmortem at a nearby mortuary, possibly. Your point is well made, however.
How eccentric was Dr Brown? He appears to be a bit of a natty guy in those 1888 sketches, with the upturned and probably waxed moustache.
I agree that most surgeons would probably want to be dressed in their best clothes for such a photograph but if Dr Brown had a bit of an eccentric bent perhaps he would not have minded being dressed this way. The coppers were wearing their work clothes, he was wearing his.
Chris

Put your objective hat on.

The mortuary was not 'nearby' to Moor Lane Police Station. And who would have walked to the station dressed like that for a photograph? The cook, mess manager or similar, is, to my mind, the only logical explanation.

[Monty]

Examinations of both prisoners and Policemen were sometimes undertaken at Stations. Brown did more than just post mortem work.

Monty

[Stewart P Evans]

Already Mentioned

Examinations of both prisoners and Policemen were sometimes undertaken at Stations. Brown did more than just post mortem work.
Monty

This has already been mentioned on this thread. Doctors would not dress up like this to do such an examination at a station.

[Monty]

This has already been mentioned on this thread. Doctors would not dress up like this to do such an examination at a station.

It depends on the exact nature of the examination and the Doctor concerned.

Monty

[Stewart P Evans]

Really?

It depends on the exact nature of the examination and the Doctor concerned.
Monty

Really? Please cite an example. I worked with modern day police surgeons for nearly 30 years (not so different from their Victorian counterparts in what they dealt with) mainly examining detained prisoners and I never saw them dress in any such protective clothing.

I have also never seen an example of this in Victorian cases I have studied but perhaps you can prove me wrong. At the end of the day there is no way, as I see it, that this is Brown. Take into account the apparent age of the man in the photo (not 57 years old in my opinion) and dress (no doctor would dress like this for a posed group photo). But you have nailed your colours to the mast and are obviously sticking with it to the bitter end.

[Natalie Severn]

It depends on the exact nature of the examination and the Doctor concerned.

Monty

But Monty, even if Dr Brown had had to put a white apron on, to examine a prisoner,he was doing a distinguished job as the City Police surgeon and would surely to goodness have been encouraged to have taken it off for the group photo and take up a more central place in this police group than allowing himself to be photographed in his working apron,and in his shirt sleeves, without even a tie on ,standing on the sidelines?
Being photographed was quite a grand and formal occasion in those days.I can"t imagine a situation,even today,where a doctor would agree to be photographed with his police colleagues, in work overalls.Even today,how a doctor dresses in a hospital is of great significance for example.A surgeon ,when doing his rounds does not usually wear any overalls ,just his suit or a blazer and formal trousers.The other staff,junior doctors etc do wear white coats etc but not the senior doctors.It is an important distinguishing mark----just as a consultant is called Mr not Dr etc.
But for their cook to wear an apron would surely be quite a different matter .Ok ,he hasnt got his cook"s hat on,which might have looked a tad over the top even then,but he does have his professional apron on which marks him out as the cook and not a cleaner .
Best
Norma

[Stewart P Evans]

Repeat

I also repeat that there are only 12 uniformed officers in this photo and if you examine the original they all look very young with not one older officer (as in the Harvey Jubilee photograph) present. This argues for a group photo taken at the section house. The four officers in the front row have their left hands visible and not one is wearing a wedding ring - again indicating younger, unmarried, officers

[Monty]

At the end of the day there is no way, as I see it, that this is Brown. Take into account the apparent age of the man in the photo (not 57 years old in my opinion) and dress (no doctor would dress like this for a posed group photo). But you have nailed your colours to the mast and are obviously sticking with it to the bitter end.

The fact that Rob and I have decided to keep our voices down on this whole 'is it?' or 'isnt it?' debate, to respect others views when they have presented their own arguements whilst acknowledging the fact people have the ability to decide for themselves rather than continually repeating arguements and letting the evidencies speak for themselves one way or the other...kinda indicates where our colours lay.

However, I will say that an assessment of age is a personal judgement. Surely, as a former Police Officer Stewart you are aware age cannot be pinpointed exactly. Therefore it cannot be taken as read this man is not 57 years of age. Youve never met him or seen a contemporary image of a 57 year old Brown. What are you basing the age on?

There is a lot of assumption going on here, not just on our side.

You state that Brown would not appear in apron without a tie. You also mention that....

In Victorian days such a job as a police cook running a section house would be seen as secure, steady and respectable employment with a decent wage. As a City Police employee I am sure that he would be required to wear respectable clothing and not shabby attire. Also if he knew he was to appear in a group photograph that day I am sure he would be keen to project a decent image.

So the cook, in this photo, so keen to project a decent image, leaves HIS apron on. The same arguement you lay for Brown can just as easily be presented for a Cook.

I also repeat that there are only 12 uniformed officers in this photo and if you examine the original they all look very young with not one older officer (as in the Harvey Jubilee photograph) present. This argues for a group photo taken at the section house. The four officers in the front row have their left hands visible and not one is wearing a wedding ring - again indicating younger, unmarried, officers

And? The location has already been identified. I fail to see how this supports your arguement it is not Brown. Moor Lane comes under City of London Police, therefore Brown, if indeed it is him, would not be out of place at that location.

The photo is strikingly similar to the Penny Illustrated News image of October 1888. Its not as if there are any obvious differences.

Either the artist produced a false image that just happened to look a heck of a lot like the man in the photograph, or he asked the Moor Lane cook to pose for him and labelled him as the Divisional Surgeon.

That or, God forbid, it actually is Brown*.

Monty...awaiting the inevitable