Ripperologist 112

[caz]

Robert, I do believe you've just hit on the true origins of Brown Windsor soup.

You don't suppose Dr Bond was round the back, drafted in to make the tea, do you?

Brooke Bond PG Tips, naturally.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Perhaps we can compromise. One day the cook doesn't turn up so Brown volunteers to do the meal. This photo is for the men's familes to have, should anything happen to them.

[Stewart P Evans]

Boots

Just a small observation,using a graphic programme and concentrating on the fotwear,it appears to me,allowing my eyesight may not be the best,that the shoes the cook? is wearing appear to be of a different design,style and shade of colouring than the others.Maybe cooks were better paid?

The police officers would be wearing regulation boots whilst the man in the apron would have his own boots/shoes on.

[harry]

Just a small observation,using a graphic programme and concentrating on the fotwear,it appears to me,allowing my eyesight may not be the best,that the shoes the cook? is wearing appear to be of a different design,style and shade of colouring than the others.Maybe cooks were better paid?

[Monty]

Yes, the image was emailed to me on 13 October 2009. At that time it was stated that you found it at the Guildhall.

That was my impression, upon the advice of Don.

I believe that Neil's first thought had also been that it was a cook or chef....

That was indeed my first glance reaction.


Monty

[Stewart P Evans]

Explanation

That was wrong. You should have been told it was found at the London Metropolitan Archives.

Right, I think the explanation is in the fact that the material has now migrated from the Guildhall to the LMA. I copied photographs at both locations but was sure it was at the Guildhall where I saw the City Police group photographs.

[Rob Clack]

Yes, the image was emailed to me on 13 October 2009. At that time it was stated that you found it at the Guildhall.
.

That was wrong. You should have been told it was found at the London Metropolitan Archives.

[Rob Clack]

If I understand correctly all the manuscripts formerly at the Guildhall are being relocated to the LMA:
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/Archive%20Services.pdf

Thank you Chris, that's was what Don Rumbelow was telling me about the City Police records and also what the staff at the LMA were telling me.
The photographs that were held at the Guildhall (not just the City Police photographs) are now at the LMA. Most of the Guildhall items are still being integrated into the LMA catalogued, and if anybody needs anything they need to speak to a member of staff.

Rob

[Stewart P Evans]

Opinion

Well I won't be making that mistake again. And actually I believe Neil e-mailed you the photo a few weeks prior to our visit to ask your opinion.

Yes, the image was emailed to me on 13 October 2009. At that time it was stated that you found it at the Guildhall.

I did give my opinion at that time that I felt it might be a cook in a group shot taken at the 'section' house. It appears to be an informal uniformed shot as helmets/hats are not being worn and it is a small group of 12 constables (out of a strength of around 800) of which only 6 appear to be entitled to the medal; there are two men in plain clothes and the aproned man. The Snow Hill shot shows a much larger group, all wearing headgear and with several more senior officers present. It is also of earlier vintage.

I believe that Neil's first thought had also been that it was a cook or chef and that the idea it might be Brown was yours. It's pointless to say that we haven't seen another photo with a cook in it as I don't recall a group photo with a doctor in it. I appreciate that there was an idea that the top hatted man in the Leman Street photo might be Bagster Phillips but that is unconfirmed. Group shots were commonplace and varied in their nature.

I have already explained my thoughts of what the photograph shows and all the indicators, to my mind, point to that. I have not studied the structure of the City Police single men's quartering but the indicators are that as well as a sergeant in charge, there was a cook employed, who may have had the official title of 'mess manager' and was a very important part of the single men's life at the house. Any constable awarded a medal was entitled to wear that medal if in uniform. This wasn't done in normal everyday duty but when posing for a photograph it would be commonplace to proudly display any medal you were entitled to.

[Chris]

You probably did. Two boxes of photographs were transferred from the Guildhall to the LMA around October last year. Whether there is anymore I don't know. The City Police Museum was closed when I went to Wood Street and it may be permanent. There may be other photos there.

Most of the surviving City Police personnel records are at the LMA. Some may still be at the Guildhall.

If I understand correctly all the manuscripts formerly at the Guildhall are being relocated to the LMA:

http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/Archive%20Services.pdf

[Rob Clack]

I'm sure I saw it at the Guildhall, but didn't they transfer their City Police material to the LMA?

You probably did. Two boxes of photographs were transferred from the Guildhall to the LMA around October last year. Whether there is anymore I don't know. The City Police Museum was closed when I went to Wood Street and it may be permanent. There may be other photos there.

Most of the surviving City Police personnel records are at the LMA. Some may still be at the Guildhall.

[Monty]

Stewart,

I would like to thank you for taking the time out to check your sources with regards Harveys collar number.

I apologise for my error and the wording I used. It was unfair and amiss. Another lesson learned.

As for introducing Harvey, its wasnt a tit for tat response, just the first comparison that came into my head. As it turns out a completely wrong one and illy considered.

Again, learning curve, and a bloody steep one at that.

Whatever your views are of me Stewart, Ive always held my hand up when Im wrong. As you state, no one is infallible and I certainly am not. I admit to my errors.

Ive certainly learnt a lot this week and have certainly questioned myself over the past few days.

As for Brown, I still stand by our arguements in the article. As ever I welcome peoples opinions not matter what they are and, contrary to the insinuation we are desperate for it to be Brown, the matter really is insignificant as it brings nothing to the case other than possibily a face to a name.

And I have nothing further to add to the matter.

Cheers

Monty

[Stewart P Evans]

Guildhall

The photograph if anybody wants to see it, is at the London Metropolitan Archives. And anybody can go and look at it.
This is the box with reference number on it.
[ATTACH]8609[/ATTACH]

I'm sure I saw it at the Guildhall, but didn't they transfer their City Police material to the LMA?

[Rob Clack]

The photograph if anybody wants to see it, is at the London Metropolitan Archives. And anybody can go and look at it.
This is the box with reference number on it.

[Stewart P Evans]

Striped Shirt

Now that I have seen Rob's enlargement of the photo I must say that it appears to be a striped shirt and not a check shirt.