Ripperologist 112

[Natalie Severn]

The only problem I have Monty is concerning the two very different noses in the two drawings of Brown. [and whether he was using an early form of Botox and Grecian 1000 to chase his wrinkles and grey hair away!

[Monty]

As I have stated, in my opinion this is more likely to be a section house cook than a police surgeon. Police group photographs were taken for all sorts of reasons and there is an argument for this being a group of single men living in the section house.

A cook was one of only three staff at a section house, as I pointed out in a previous post. That being the case this could well be the three staff of the section house, including the cook dressed as he was for his daily duties (note the apron is at least clean!). I do not see that wearing a tie would come into it, and it would be unlikely that he did in a hot kitchen. It would be unlikely for a police surgeon to appear like this without a tie. To the men in a section house the cook would be part of the 'family' at the house. These group photographs were often taken for the men as a memento of their colleagues and where they lived.

I appreciate that you have not said that it is definitely Brown but you have certainly made a very, very strong case for this, a huge picture of his face forms the cover of the latest Ripperologist and you leave very little room for opposition in your reasoning in the article. Indeed I've already had someone say to me 'I see Neil and Rob have found a photo of Dr Brown now.'

Around the time of this photograph Brown would have been, I believe, around 56 years old and the man in the photo appears younger than that to me. I do not agree with you that it is 'highly possible' that this is a photograph of Brown and I feel that the case for that may have been somewhat overstated. Basically the main 'evidence' for your argument is the similarity of the man in the photo with a drawing(s) done many years earlier.

And a vey valid opinion it is too Stewart, one you are entitled to.

Rob and I have no input into what does or does not go on the front of Ripperologist, thats a matter for the editors. If we did then you would have the pleasure of seeing our faces beaming back at you every month.

Again, as Ive repeated ad nauseum, our opinion is that it is Brown however we have been clear that this is not an ascertained fact. Its there for all who care to read it. We merely put forward our arguments as to why we thought this.

The main evidence you cite is supported by the location of the photo, the period the photo was taken in and the attire of the man we feel is Brown. This is all we can do at this precise stage until evidence one way or other is provided.

It is pretty similar to the Harvey photo. This photo, as far as Im aware (and apologies if I am incorrect), is not an ascertained picture of Harvey and I suspect identity leaned heavily on Harveys collar number. For our sketch of Brown place Harveys collar number. In 1888 it was 964. The Snow Hill group photo from which the possible image of Harvey is taken from was an 1887 group photo (incidently, a commemorative photo). However Harvey previously had a collar number of 878. Now, this collar number must gave been altered at some stage to 964, question is when?

If prior to the 87 photo then obviously then man is indeed Harvey, if after the 87 photo then we cannot say for certain it was. And until this change has been dated then we do not know for certain it is Harveys photo.

For what its worth, I personally feel it is a picture of Harvey yet as it stands at the moment, as far as Im aware, we do not know this as fact.

Again, for clarification, we welcome your input on this Stewart. Its only right that your opinion (and Normas for that matter) is heard. Suffice to say that research is ongoing with on this photo and will will keep all updated should we find anything that clarifys the photo one way or the other.

Respectful regards, honestly,

Monty

[Suzi]

Must be true! x

[Monty]

OK, OK, flattery will get you everywhere - it must be Brown in the photograph.

You do realise that in our world this classes as an endorsement by your good self?

Monty

[Suzi]

Interesting thread here-

Hi chaps-
At first look I would imagine 'Mr White Apron' would be connected 'er with the 'Catering Industry'-but WHY?.....very odd though to be so prominent in such an official looking photograph....

Looking back at it again - a police surgeon may be more likely and more than likely very possible!
- fascinating! - Obviously a character in the station who was well known -and therefore couldn't be missed out of the official 'shot'...... Interesting.... and he would want to be seen in his 'whites'- Whether it's Brown or not- is something else again......

Just off to see if I can touch the top of my nose with one eye shut!

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Stewart.I love the picture of Bishopsgate Police Station.Its much more impressive that the one they replaced it with.
Best
Norma

[Stewart P Evans]

OK

Stewart,
Thats their issue Im afraid. Whoever it was that told you this has not read the article, not correctly at least.
If they had they would have realised that you were one of the very first people we consulted.
As for the age, pah, you look 25 at least.
Monty

OK, OK, flattery will get you everywhere - it must be Brown in the photograph.

[Stewart P Evans]

Deceptive

Can I ask Stewart----did you also notice the men had two entirely different noses in the drawings of Dr Gordon Brown? The question has to be asked which nose is the right nose?

Yes, Norma I think that drawings can be very deceptive. The photograph of Henry Smith is from his book From Constable to Commissioner (1910).

[Monty]

Stewart,

Thats their issue Im afraid. Whoever it was that told you this has not read the article, not correctly at least.

If they had they would have realised that you were one of the very first people we consulted.

As for the age, pah, you look 25 at least.

Monty

[Stewart P Evans]

Bishopsgate Police Station

The aforementioned book also included a nice photograph of Bishopsgate Police Station.

[Natalie Severn]

Ah but this is the strange world of Ripperology - where 'highly probable' becomes 'definite' in this minds of those who wish it to be so. As I have said the man in the apron also appears to be much to young to be Brown.

Can I ask Stewart----did you also notice the men had two entirely different noses in the drawings of Dr Gordon Brown? The question has to be asked which nose is the right nose?

[Natalie Severn]

Great pic of Major Henry Smith there Stewart! Thanks for that.

[Stewart P Evans]

Strange World

Stewart,
...However I will say whoever informed you that we HAVE found a photo of Brown holds the responsibility of that misleading statement rather than Rob or myself. We have been very clear in presenting the photo as a 'possible' photo and our opinions are also highlighted as just that, our opinions.
I hold no responsibility for others making erronous statements...we have been very clear.
Monty

Ah but this is the strange world of Ripperology - where 'highly probable' becomes 'definite' in the minds of those who wish it to be so. As I have said the man in the apron also appears to be much too young to be Brown.

[Stewart P Evans]

Moor Lane Police Station

The photograph of Moor Lane police station together with potted history was included in the 1989 book City of London Police '150 Years of Service'.

[Monty]

Stewart,

Im just about to leave and play cricket so have little time to compile a full response to your posts.

However I will say whoever informed you that we HAVE found a photo of Brown holds the responsibility of that misleading statement rather than Rob or myself. We have been very clear in presenting the photo as a 'possible' photo and our opinions are also highlighted as just that, our opinions.

I hold no responsibility for others making erronous statements...we have been very clear.

Monty