Ripperologist 111

[doris]

Hasn't Ostrog been proved to have been locked up in France at the time of the murders?

doris

[Tom_Wescott]

Hasn't Ostrog been proved to have been locked up in France at the time of the murders?

Yes, by Philip Sugden in 1997. That's what the discussion is about..I'm suggesting that Ostrog was confused with another suspect and am being completely ignored for my efforts. DVV and Jason C are pointing out that Ostrog's place in the Macnaghten 3 gives the lie to the whole document. Jonathan is arguing that...well, I'm not exactly sure what he's arguing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Yes, by Philip Sugden in 1997. That's what the discussion is about..I'm suggesting that Ostrog was confused with another suspect and am being completely ignored for my efforts. DVV and Jason C are pointing out that Ostrog's place in the Macnaghten 3 gives the lie to the whole document. Jonathan is arguing that...well, I'm not exactly sure what he's arguing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,
I am very interested in what you are saying here about the aliases of Ostrog and Le Grand possibly having been juxtaposed in some strange way?
However as this is a completely new concept to me ,I would need more information before joining such a discussion.

[Jonathan H]

I am arguing that Macnaghten knew that Ostrog was not the Ripper and that is why he put him on the list. Somebody whom he could practically guarantee would not sue for libel if the Home Sec. said in the Commons 'a Russian doctor'.

[Monty]

Macnaghten was merely pointing out 3 men who he felt were better suspects than Cutbush.

He wasnt naming Jack. This must be understood.

Therefore I suspect he was looking for any suspect with what he deemed better 'credentials'.

If Le Grand was to his hand then its possible he could have been included by Sir Melville.

Either way, the 3 he listed is not neccesarily an indication of his, or the departments, belief of guilt.

If Macnaghten listed Tom, Deacon, Harry then Messers Fido and Howells (and whoever lists those 3 as suspects) would have provided us with entirely different books.

Their research has a basis with Mac.

Monty

[Scott Nelson]

Welcome back.

[doris]

Yes, by Philip Sugden in 1997. That's what the discussion is about..I'm suggesting that Ostrog was confused with another suspect and am being completely ignored for my efforts. DVV and Jason C are pointing out that Ostrog's place in the Macnaghten 3 gives the lie to the whole document. Jonathan is arguing that...well, I'm not exactly sure what he's arguing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Aha, thanks Tom.

doris

[Trevor Marriott]

A lot of suspects in the mystery have in my mind already been eliminated but for some reason some people will not accept this and choose to keep wanting to argue there viablity.

Come on now guys and gals accept these things and stop all this repetetive petty arguing and bickering and back biting it really is getting boring now.

[Jonathan H]

You mean me?

That I am being boring, petty, backbiting, and anachronistic?

I have found the posters to be polite and civil and thoughtful and so I disagree with all of that -- except the tedium part. If you find it boring that's you're right but if other posters want to debate some issues who are you to shut us down?

And right after I send a post saying that for 'some people' if this whole debate should seriously and plausibly rotate back towards the so-called discredited 'Drowned Doctor' then panic will set in ...

[Hunter]

A lot of suspects in the mystery have in my mind already been eliminated but for some reason some people will not accept this and choose to keep wanting to argue there viablity.

Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black.

[DVV]

I posted somewhere recently my thoughts that Ostrog might have been confused with another suspect, Charles Le Grand. Both were thieves, both used the alias 'Grant', but Le Grand was a far more violent, evil character, who had a collection of knives, abused prostitutes, etc. Both Ostrog and Le Grand were wrongly called Belgians at times.
Tom Wescott

I doubt it, Tom.
Ostrog was too well known to the police to have been confused with anyone.
Macnaghten quickly portrayed him as a dangerous maniac to make his memo more glamour, when in fact he knew nothing whatsoever that could link poor Ostrog to the Ripper murders.

"Unquestionably a homicidal maniac"..."habitually cruel to women"...and of course, he had "surgical knives"...
A fourth Macnaghten suspect would have been furnished with a gladstone bag.

Amitiés,
David

[jason_c]

Macnaghten was merely pointing out 3 men who he felt were better suspects than Cutbush.

He wasnt naming Jack. This must be understood.

Therefore I suspect he was looking for any suspect with what he deemed better 'credentials'.

If Le Grand was to his hand then its possible he could have been included by Sir Melville.

Either way, the 3 he listed is not neccesarily an indication of his, or the departments, belief of guilt.

If Macnaghten listed Tom, Deacon, Harry then Messers Fido and Howells (and whoever lists those 3 as suspects) would have provided us with entirely different books.

Their research has a basis with Mac.

Monty

Monty

You are correct in that he wasnt naming the murderer. However, these were more than names out of a hat. Druitt was his favoured suspect as far as we can tell. And Kosminski the only suspect who had any sort of proof against him.

[Jonathan H]

Monty, I agree with Jason.

I think that if we all we had was the Mac Report, official version, then I would agree; random suspects plucked out of his top hat -- and not very good ones at that.

But because we also have the Mac Report, unofficial version, in which Mac made it clear he favored Druitt, and his extraordinary memoirs which do the same about the same un-named suspect, and Anderson's comments, article and memoirs which favour the un-named Kosminski -- backed by Swanson's private notation -- then these were major competing suspects to two senior, possibly three, policemen.

A strong historical argument, I believe, can also be mounted for Littlechild's suspect, Tumblety, as well.

[Monty]

Jason, Jonathan,

There is no proof against Kosminski at all, only belief. We have the memoirs of an aged former Inpector on the case which, oddly, seems to be completed at alternate times and released many years later as evidence of Kosminskis suspicion. No official document whatsoever. Therefore we should tread with caution

Im sure Macnaghten scouted for the next best, I never suggested they were mere names. However I think he his stating his favourite out of the 3, not his overall preferred suspect.

Cheers
Monty

[DVV]

Hi Monty,

what makes you think Macnaghten had an "overall preferred suspect" other than Druitt?

Amitiés,
David