Ripperologist 111

[robhouse]

"Rob,you can try to rubbish Smith as much as you want.."

I don't think I have ever rubbished Smith in my entire life. In fact I can't recall a single post in which I mentioned him much at all.. although it is possible. From what I have read of Smith's memoirs, I thought they were very funny and interesting.

"Answer those questions for me first and then produse one single jot of evidence to support Anderson"s claim."

I am sure I have responded to this in fact several times. In my opinion, it is possible that there were only a select few at the MET who ever knew much of anything about Kozminski. As I have pointed out, it is possible that Swanson's note "known to head officers CID" quite possibly refers to Kozminski's identification, and the inquiries surrounding him... not the identity of the writer of the Dear Boss letter as is commonly assumed. If this is true, I do not see why Abberline etc should have known about Kozminski at all. The inquiries into him as a suspect were very possibly kept secret as much as possible, for the reasons I have said before.

Your post largely displays what I said before. Specifically, that you avoid responding to my posts, which are rather specific... instead you always turn to your mantra of Anderson was bad, Smith, Abberline etc. I was critiquing some things that you said (and which you keep repeating over and over), and which are demonstrably wrong. I do not of course think that will keep you from continuing to post them as you have been doing.

Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Nats,

You make good points and can obviously argue Anderson. But surely, even after all that, you must concede that Kosminski is still a better suspect than Klosowski.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[jason_c]

Hi Trevor,

That was a very good post, and it seems we generally agree on the memoranda. However, it doesn't seem that ANY of Macnaghten's information came from the files, but from his own mind. None of the suspects had apparently been investigated (certainly not Ostrog or Druitt), and were offered up because their alleged guilt would cause no fall out against the government or crown and they were not in a position to defend themselves. Macnaghten himself says there were 'several' suspects, and he's merely offering up the cases of these three. Slowly but surely, we're finding the ones he couldn't mention for purposes of libel and/or controversy.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

How did Macnaghten know that Ostrog was missing during the Autumn of 1888?

He obviously had no idea of Ostrog being imprisoned at the time. It turns out of course that Macnaghten was correct, Ostrog was indeed missing during the Whitechapel murders. A likely explanation is that he looked at the files.

Ostrog's prison stint is often used to criticize the memorandum. In my opinion its one of the parts of the memorandum that suggests MM gives us some correct information in his memo.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

You make good points and can obviously argue Anderson. But surely, even after all that, you must concede that Kosminski is still a better suspect than Klosowski.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Well if there if there was a jot of evidence Tom,I would certainly concede that.But there isnt,not from his thirty year stay in asylums,not from a single police officer,not from anyone anywhere except Anderson.
Klosowski was there in Whitechapel in 1888 ,was executed for murdering three women in succession and some descriptions of height,colouring, build match witness sightings .Not bad compared to someone like Kosminski with no crime against his name that has ever come to light.
Best
Norma

[Stewart P Evans]

Anderson

Anderson was fixated on the whole Irish problem and Parnell. In 1906 he was still trying to implicate Parnell in connivance or knowledge of the Phoenix Park murders. In 1910 he was still at it and regurgitating the Ripper case to boot.

[Tom_Wescott]

Not bad compared to someone like Kosminski with no crime against his name that has ever come to light.

You obviously underestimate the brutality and cold-bloodedness of men who walk dogs without muzzles.

How did Macnaghten know that Ostrog was missing during the Autumn of 1888?

Why wouldn't he know that? But many of the other details he provides are totally wrong. An investigation would have turned up the fact that he was in Paris, but there was no investigation.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[jason_c]

You obviously underestimate the brutality and cold-bloodedness of men who walk dogs without muzzles.



Why wouldn't he know that? But many of the other details he provides are totally wrong. An investigation would have turned up the fact that he was in Paris, but there was no investigation.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

This was a time before interpol. The flow of information was much more limited than today. All Ostrog had to do was keep quiet about his stint in prison. Unless the British police had some knowledge of his contintental visit they had no reason to contact the French authorities. Ostrog could have been living on the moon as far as the police knew.

Unless Macnaghten personally tried to find Ostrog during the Autumn of 1888(which is a non starter) he must have read somewhere that Ostrog could not be found during this period.

[DVV]

Hi Jason,

but then how could a man whose whereabouts in 1888 were unknown became a prime suspect in such an important case ?

It tells a lot, doesn't it ?

Amitiés,
David

[jason_c]

Hi Jason,

but then how could a man whose whereabouts in 1888 were unknown became a prime suspect in such an important case ?

It tells a lot, doesn't it ?

Amitiés,
David

Whatever the reason he was a suspect.

From what we know of Ostrog its a strange inclusion. I have to suggest the police had more (alleged) suspiscions about his sexual history, or perhaps he was confused with another criminal who had proven history of sex crimes.

He was missing during 1888. That part Macnaghten did get correct. He either looked at the JtR suspects file or looked at Ostrogs file outwith the Ripper investigation.

[Tom_Wescott]

From what we know of Ostrog its a strange inclusion. I have to suggest the police had more (alleged) suspiscions about his sexual history, or perhaps he was confused with another criminal who had proven history of sex crimes.

Hi Jason,

I posted somewhere recently my thoughts that Ostrog might have been confused with another suspect, Charles Le Grand. Both were thieves, both used the alias 'Grant', but Le Grand was a far more violent, evil character, who had a collection of knives, abused prostitutes, etc. Both Ostrog and Le Grand were wrongly called Belgians at times. Because my knowledge on Ostrog isn't too keen, I plan on setting some time aside to do a study of this, so right now what I'm posting is an idea, no more, no less.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Ostrog was just a thief, not a rapist, not a killer, let alone a serial killer.
There is no way Macnaghten would have known anything pointing to Ostrog as a possible Whitechapel murderer.
Ostrog is clearly a non-starter, and has ever been.

Amitiés,
David

[Jonathan H]

Absolutely right!

What is Ostrog doing on this list when he is not even a murderer, except I suppose when he tried to dangerously throw himself away attacked to a cop.

And right again, Macnaghten surely knew this -- or he was utterly incompetent.

Or ruthless and cunning.

I think poor, hapless Ostrog is there because his un-named identity [not his name] would sound good read out in Parliament, if the Home Sec. Asquith had requested the Report over the Cutbush claims -- which in the end he did not.

A Russian doctor -- bloody swine!

I think also that Mac was using this straw man as a stand-in for the real dodgy, foreign medico 'thief': Dr Tumblety. You could not mention him directly as that would be too dangerous.

An honest 1894 Report by Mac would have said Cutbush is no way the fiend, and whilst there is no shadow of proof against the following trio they are still a better bet than this cop's relative: the 'suicided' Dr. Tumblety, the sailor Sadler whom we believed certainly killed Frances Coles, and another sailor Grainger -- who was identified by our best witness Joseph Lawende.

Since the cessation of the Ripper hunt we came across two other suspects who have split the leadership of CID down the middle, but neither were known at the time of the investigation -- and when we did learn of their families' terrible fears one was dead and the other declared mad: M J Druitt and a Kosminski [I can't recall his first name].

[Tom_Wescott]

What is Ostrog doing on this list when he is not even a murderer, except I suppose when he tried to dangerously throw himself away attacked to a cop.

That's assuming he did this and wasn't being confused for Le Grand, who attempted to throw a policeman under a train.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[jason_c]

Absolutely right!

What is Ostrog doing on this list when he is not even a murderer, except I suppose when he tried to dangerously throw himself away attacked to a cop.

.

Neither was Kosminski or Druitt.

Thankfully police dont simply investigate convicted murderers during a murder investigation.

[Jonathan H]

You're missing the overall.

Druitt and Kosminski were accused of being murderers, in the former's case by his family and in the latter's case we don't know -- perhaps his family too. So far as we know nothing like that is true of Ostrog.