Casebook Examiner No. 2 (June 2010)

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Maria. There was a detective Doughty who was on a case with Abberline in about 1873. Debra's research shows him to be alive beyond the WCM. There was also a Henry Doughty jailed in early 1888 for attending a forbidden Irish meeting. He, too, seems to be alive after the WCM.

Doherty? Well Peter Doherty was murdered in about 1881 and his assassins were convicted in 1883 or 1884. (I have the news clippings--if you are interested.)

I have a jpg of the ledger page (the one mentioned by Butterworth). If you'd like to have a go at it, just PM me with your email address and I can send it along.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Mr Doughty (Doherty?)

Hello Debra and Lynn,
Right on, I immediately said "Catherine Eddowes" when I saw a "Catherine Kelly" referred along with a “John Kelly“ (in my post of this morning, #520), even without a clue about other Victorian crimes! So, if you don't mind my asking (out of sheer curiosity), who was that poor murdered Mr Doughty (Doherty), and what did Rob Clack find about him? I imagine him as some old local yokel (perhaps affluent) who was killed in his dwellings (Rashkolnikov-wise, like in good old Dostoievsky's Crime and Punishment), and the Metro Police suspected Eddowes' John Kelly?! (But I'm probably "projecting" here!) At any rate, don't feel any obligations to fill me in. On the other side, I solemny promise I'm not working on any book on JTR right now,so there's very little chance that I get hold of your scoop in any self-serving fashion!!
And re. to the John and Catherine Kelly “entries“, I assume that all of you are simply referring to entries mentioned in the Clutterbuck dissertation, and that none of you (besides Mr. Marriot) has ever PHYSICALLY had contact with the real ledges? Just to keep things clear...
(And by the way, I've already had physical contact with ledges, in a relatively brutal way, 4 or 5 years ago, when I was attempting to skate “street“!!!)

And a last question: I've seen in a thread that Fisherman has allegedly produced 2 books. Does this refer to his 2 dissertations posted on casebook, or are we talking 2 published books?
(It's not easy, but it's busy being a newbie...)
Thank you all so much and

[lynn cates]

Kelly

Hello Maria and Debra. No, I am not kidding about the mystery--nor about Debra.

Debra, my input? As if I had any. If not for that blasted John Kelly entry just above it, I am sure it would have gone unnoticed by everyone. (With all the trouble it's caused, that might have been a good thing!)

Take care both.
LC

[Debra A]

Maria, Lynn isn't joking, none of us know what this reference relates to, but it has been suggested that it might relate to Catherine Eddowes...there I've said it!
I think he is joking about the other thing, it's just that I keep bending his ear over my own interpretation of what it might relate to, to get his (and Phil's) much needed input!

I must add here that my own ideas on the entry came about because of a very interesting find by Rob Clack about the murder of a Mr. Doherty. Thanks Rob!

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
still don't get it, unless you mean this as a joke. Nevermind, though!
By the way, I'm reading further in the June thread about the ledges, and it looks like the Clutterbuck dissertation only very marginally mentions the Whitechapel investigation, plus it looks like Clutterbuck didn't see anything about Tumblety in the ledges – or maybe he didn't recognize it. At some point I might feel like having a look at his thesis, but the really relevant source are the ledges themselves. So I wish the best of lucks to Mr. Marriot.
By the by, what are the 2 books by Fisherman about? (I almost feel compelled to ask if one of them is about fishing! No offense, Fish, just kidding here!)

[lynn cates]

Doughty

Hello Maria.

"no clue whatsoever about who this Catherine Kelly and the murdered Mr Doughty are."

Indeed? Then welcome to a large and ever growing club!

But take heart, if anyone can sort it out, Debra can!

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Wow, thanks so much for the link to the Clutterbuck dissertation, Debra! (Now that I know that everybody and his cousin can download it, somehow my interest in this manuscript has subsided! Just kidding: I'm very curious to see what info it contains about the ledges. I'll most certainly look it up.)
Terribly sorry, no clue whatsoever about who this Catherine Kelly and the murdered Mr Doughty are. Certainly this is not about Thomas Doughty, in relation to Sir Francis Drake? If it's about a famous crime in Britain, I'm so sorry, I'm more familiar with American criminology!

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,
how nice that you have Clutterbuck's dissertation! (My big mistake for thinking it was unpublished, I only had time to check in several online bookstores, not in libraries. Also, Mr. Marriot talked about it quite secretively, so I was misled that it was a “forbidden book“!!) If you have perused it, does it discuss the information pertaining to the Whitechapel investigation, and does it mention Tumblety or a Jewish suspect at all? (But don't feel any obligations to reply to this question!)
Good luck with your research on the Kellys. When you say Catherine Kelly, do you mean Catherine Eddowes? (Apologies for the ignorant question!)

Hi Maria, Rob House mentioned on the Special Branch thread where Clutterbuck's thesis could be downloaded from, here's the link to the free download.I couldn't download from there though so Rob sent it to me.
I mean the entry relating to Catherine Kelly and the murder of Mr Doughty, Maria.

[mariab]

Hello Debra,
how nice that you have Clutterbuck's dissertation! (My big mistake for thinking it was unpublished, I only had time to check in several online bookstores, not in libraries. Also, Mr. Marriot talked about it quite secretively, so I was misled that it was a “forbidden book“!!) If you have perused it, does it discuss the information pertaining to the Whitechapel investigation, and does it mention Tumblety or a Jewish suspect at all? (But don't feel any obligations to reply to this question!)
Good luck with your research on the Kellys. When you say Catherine Kelly, do you mean Catherine Eddowes? (Apologies for the ignorant question!)

[Debra A]

She'll go all shy now.

Scott always has that effect on me, Robert
Thanks everyone for the kind words, I wasn't fishing for compliments, just feeling a bit under pressure for not doing enough voluntary research!

Maria, Clutterbuck's thesis has been published, I have a copy myself sent to me by Rob Clack... unless there is another unpublished one?

It will be great if Trevor manages to get access to the SB Ledgers. I have dabbled in looking at a couple of the entries already known to us. The entries on Catherine Kelly and John Kelly taking up my time at the moment.

[mariab]

Dear Mr. Carter,
FA-SCI-NA-TING. Thank you so very much again for directing me to this specific thread! I've only been through 2 pages yet but I'd like to ask: I see that Lindsay Clutterbuck was working for the RAND corporation, and (for very obvious reasons) it doesn't look like his dissertation was ever published. It appears like Mr. Marriot has either notes or a xerox copy of the thesis manuscript. I wonder in what length the information pertaining to the Whitechapel investigation is discussed in the thesis. From what Mr. Marriot says, it appears that the discussion in the dissertation is not very lengthy, and that primary sources have been totally left out, but yet again I imagine that the available information in this thesis can be used for the reconstruction of the “redacted“ parts of the ledges, that is, IF they ever become available to a researcher.
I can totally imagine what information the ledges might contain: I expect that they might mention Tumblety, a Jewish suspect, possibly even Le Grand? And I sincerely have no idea how Mr. Marriot can reconcile his interest for these ledges with (what I perceive to be) his interest in Karl Feigenbaum as a suspect, or so I've heard, at least!
By the by it's very unfortunate that Mr. Marriot seems to have retired from casebook threads after a recent argument in this very thread. I think it was in May or early June when he retired, I wasn't a casebook member then yet, but I remember perusing the thread.
Anyway, I've touched and perused some very valuable sources in my life (as a matter of fact, several of them were even located by myself), but even as a total non-specialist, my reaction to these ledges is...drooling.
The best of lucks with your appeal or (later) in court, Mr. Marriot!

[mariab]

Yes, Trevor Marriot (many apologies for having gotten the name wrong, as a newbie), I think he has written a book about Feigenbaum as a suspect (for which I'm sorry to say that I have profound reservations)?
Thank you so very much for the link, Mr. Carter, it looks like a discussion of Tumblety and Fenian activity, but I expect that Mr. Marriot's endeavor to get access into the classified Special Branch ledgers will turn up later in the discussion. I'll look it up in detail in a while, after finishing up some work.
Thank you so very much again, and

[Phil Carter]

Hello Maria,

Trevor Marriot is the man you mean I think. From the little I understand, It is a time-consuming process, which has all sorts of obstacles and procedures.
The link is here.. http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...506#post137506

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

This thread is so much FUN! I only hope that Tom Wescott will reply to my questions at some point (perhaps tomorrow). I'll probably go back to Examiner 2 (which is fascinating) after finishing another project. It's raining cats and dogs, but tropical-like in Berlin. It feels like in Brazil or something.

[Robert]

She'll go all shy now.