Casebook Examiner No. 2 (June 2010)

[lynn cates]

astute

Hello Maria. You make several astute observations here. Perhaps Liz was bruised by the fellow she left on Thursday after leaving Kidney on Tuesday?

Say, you should consider writing up your observations for an article in the Casebook Examiner. That would be interesting.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
About the bruises, I think we should really ask someone with real medical experience. But I doubt that bruises form earlier than 12-48 hours after their infliction. And I really wonder what Dr. Blackwell meant when he said that he had seen the same bruises “on two occasions since“. I think the latter might be an important piece of evidence.
Wow, thank you so much, you're being so kind to consider me for writing something in Examiner! Perhaps much later, in a few months, when I've studied the case more thoroughly. (I've just ordered Sudgen, The ultimate companion by Evans/Skinner, Paley, and a couple of Ripper Notes and I've never consulted any primary sources beyond what is posted on casebook, so as you see there's a lot of material I need to get acquainted with!)
In 2009 I was in the UK a lot, and if I end up there as often as that again, I wouldn't mind at all looking through some archives pertaining to the case. But UK is not planned for me for the very near future, sadly...
Another thing I'd be interesting in would be attending the next Ripperological conference, esp. if it's housed in Europe in 2010, or in the States in the fall/winter of 2011.
Anyway, thanks very much for your kind words, and best regards,
Maria

[lynn cates]

Ultimate

Hello Maria. Do read the Ultimate Companion first. It is a REAL eye opener.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hi Lynn,
Sure thing. (I've ordered it from Illinois for $8 and it'll take at least a month of shipping, though!) And I hope it contains lots of transcripts of the primary sources.
Best regards,
Maria

[GregBaron]

Stride's demise...........

Hi All,

Interesting discussion concerning the logistics of Stride's demise. This may be daft but I thought
I'd offer some amateurish observations...........

On to our ever over discussed arterial spray....if attacked from behind and sliced on the way down I would think
the dress and perhaps stones would indicate this splatter....I don't really know the blood evidence but I seem to
recall a flow down the gutter that might support a slice while prone.......

This needn't dismiss Mr. Fisherman's assertion of the from behind attack, perhaps she was leaving dismissively or
preparing for from behind sex but here is where the chokehold or stranglehold discussed on another thread would
come in handy. If he puts her in the triangular elbow to the sternum chokehold he may have her passed out in seconds
and the mysterious fainting spell is unnecessary. This appears to be what was done with at least some of the others.
He puts her in the chokehold, lies her down, grabs her scarf to distend the throat and then slices. This chokehold,
with the pressured triangle could also possibly explain the chest brusing as the elbow could be pushing hard towards
the sternum. This would also leave little evidence about the throat but could explain the tight fisted cachous.....



Greg

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Greg. That is interesting.

I believe she was "neck over ground" by the end of her being pulled off balance sequence. If so, the ground would catch the spray.

Does one normally go for something like cachous in preparation for sex? (Well, if boredom is anticipated, as well as a long time, perhaps a novel?)

I hope some of these points are addressed in future Casebook Examiner articles.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

And – wait! – there is more; ah, the cachous! Now, what you have suggested – and correct me if I am wrong – is that the killer takes her into the court, and she faints and falls or is lowered to the ground. And after that, the killer grabs her by the scarf and cuts her neck. He then finishes by putting a packet of cachous in her hand, shaping the hand around it, and leaves the yard.

I have never even remotely suggested such an idea. I think that idea is preposterous.

Hello Maria. You make several astute observations here. Perhaps Liz was bruised by the fellow she left on Thursday after leaving Kidney on Tuesday?

No such person is known or even suggested by the evidence to exist.

Regarding the shoulder bruising, it didn't begin to appear until after death, which is perimortem bruising. The bruising must have been inflicted shortly before, during, or shortly after death. More than likely it was caused by her killer, but we can't be sure. It's worth noting that Israel Schwartz told the Star that Stride was grabbed by her shoulders and thrown down.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

testimony

Hello Tom. I was not talking about evidence but about the inquest testimony. The hearsay was that Liz had words with the man with whom she was living and left on Thursday. Kidney claimed he last saw her Tuesday. He claimed also that they had not had words.

Of course, one, the other or both could be lying (Liz had a history of that), but what if both had told the truth?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

The hearsay was that Liz had words with the man with whom she was living and left on Thursday. Kidney claimed he last saw her Tuesday. He claimed also that they had not had words.

Stride left Kidney on Tuesday. One of the women at the lodging house (I believe Tanner) didn't see her until Thursday, which is where this idea comes from. However, other people at the lodging house testified they saw her on Tuesday, so there's little reason to think she was elsewhere.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

inquest testimony

Hello Tom. That could be. Of course, the Daily Telegraph has this:

"Coroner] Who is he? - She was living with him. She left him on Thursday to come and stay at our house, so she told me."

Perhaps Tanner is confused? Or perhaps she left Kidney Tuesday and someone else on Thursday?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

It's not that it 'could be'. It's that it is. She left Kidney on Tuesday, so sayeth Kidney, and arrived at her lodging house later that very same day, so sayeth the lodgers. Conclusion? She left Kidney on Tuesday. She may have then stayed Wednesday night in Hanbury Street. You can read about that in my Casebook Examiner #1 essay. The issue is available for free, so I would expect anyone wishing to engage me in Stride talk to have read it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"I have never even remotely suggested such an idea. I think that idea is preposterous."

Which of it, Tom - You quoted nigh on a dozen elements there. I am sorry if I offended you, but I seem to remember that I have for example seen you discuss the possibility of the Ripper putting the cachous in Strides hand (you compared it, if I am correct, to the thimble "placed" close to Eddowes´body). And I know that you have suggested that Stride did faint. You do favour a scenario with Strides head lifted by the scarf. So please correct me if I have gone wrong - I would not want to do such a thing, and apologize in advance if I have. Let´s have no bad blood between us!

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fish. I did suggest the possibility that Stride fainted, and that IS a possibility because there's no medical evidence that tells us how she was subdued. But I've NEVER suggested that the Ripper placed the cachous in Stride's hand. That's ridiculous. I wrote all about how and why the cachous was in her hand in 'Berner Street Mystery Part 2', which is the third best essay ever written on the Stride murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

I had a quick glance at the posts I was thinking about, and it seems that I misread you on the thimble/cachous thing, Tom. I am sorry for that, and hope you accept my apology if this is what you are referring to.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"I wrote all about how and why the cachous was in her hand in 'Berner Street Mystery Part 2', which is the third best essay ever written on the Stride murder."

So you noticed my two, then ...?

We crossed posts, obviously. Of course, Stride fainting conveniently IS a possibility, but far too convenient one in my taste. Digging through the posts, I noticed your suggestion of a robbery ruse, where the cachous stuck in Strides fingers as she went through her pockets to satisfy the Rippers demand for money. But that does not explain why she held on to them when she fainted, does it? I think the - by far - best bet is that she held on to them because she could not let them go, due to being choked and clenching her fingers.

Earlier on this thread, you stated that it would be impossible to strangle a woman garotting her with a neckerchief silk scarf like the one Stride was wearing. I would very much like you to elaborate on that!

The best,
Fisherman