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Casebook Examiner No. 2 (June 2010)

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  • Phil,

    You're a little off the playing field. I've never suggested Le Grand and co. were the only private detectives or wannabe PI's wandering around. All of the patrolmen of the WVC and other vigilance committees (whom Moore probably had in mind when he made that statement) would fit into that category. What Roy asked was when Le Grand was hired by the WVC, and I say September by all indicators. Simon asked how we can be sure Le Grand and Batchelor were the PI's hired by the WVC and I pointed out that the sources prove it beyond any doubt.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • Hello Roy,

      I read this the same way, and agree with you.

      Hello Tom,

      In reference to your specific playing field, not my broader one (which I did state), respectfully, I do not believe that you have shown the sources do indeed prove it beyond doubt. Swanson did not name the two. Therefore one cannot simply assume these were the people he meant. It is not fact. Therefore the Swanson connection shows doubt.

      I can see where you are coming from, no problem. Part of Ripperology is doing exactly what you are doing, which is to be applauded, however, irrefutable facts, conclusions, statements and especially evidence, are few and far between. By sheer definition, "indicators" can lead towards a firmer conclusion, but not always a factually tight conclusion.

      best wishes

      Phil
      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


      Justice for the 96 = achieved
      Accountability? ....

      Comment


      • newspaper reports and suspects

        Roy wrote:
        Your reply proves my point, Tom. Because if Le Grand and Batchelor took charge of the volunteers in September, then bringing up the subject of hiring detectives at the Oct 2 meeting would not be something new, requiring an announcement.

        I have NO idea whatsoever about the accuracy of newspaper reports in 1880s/1990s London, but I can tell of Neapolitan newspapers of the 1820s/1830s and of the exasperating effects of doing research with them (trying to corroborate a chronology of events, political or art-related). Neapolitan newspapers of the early 19th century announce events as late as 5 days to a week to 10 days after the event's occurence, WITHOUT giving the exact date of the event. So it would have been perfectly normal for, say, Il corriere delle 2 Sicilie (which was a major European newspaper in the early to mid 19th century, as Naples was a very important European cultural center at the time), if in a similar hypothetical situation, to mention the hiring of detectives for the VC 10 days after it happened and without mentioning the date of the exact event occurence. Parisian newspapers of the early to mid 19th century are a bit more quick, but still they tend to announce events 2 to 3 days after their occurence, often without giving the exact dates of the event. I have no clue if things started to get more accurate in the 1880s/1890s, but I can ask (next time I bump into any “distinguished colleague“ specialized in the Fin de siècle).
        Besides this I have a very stupid question, newby-wise: Would it be not possible for Le Grand, were he to be considered as a suspect for the Ripper, to have applied at the WVC immediately AFTER the “double event“ instead of before? Same motivation, slightly different MO.
        Can I also ask if the “Swanson connection“ mentioned by posters on this thread refers to the Swanson Marginalia, and in which manner there does it show doubt about Le Grand/Batchelor? (If I got this right while 'blindly' reading the posts here.) I've looked around, but the Swanson Marginalia are not available on casebook, and I don't have the Evans/Skinner book to use for reference.
        I promise to soon plundge into Examiner 1 and 2, which I've just received, so as to refrain from asking such uninformed questions. (I had to take a raincheck due to a weekend away surfing and now due to a paper on deadline, but eventuallly I'll get to read these babies.)
        And a last question re. City P.C George Hutt, can anyone name the Evening News issue where he complained about ramping antisemitism in the East End, as Natalie Severn wrote? Is it possible to access London 1889 newspapers somewhere online?
        With many thanks and with a thousand apologies for being so ignorant, and for coming forward with too many questions,
        Maria
        Natalie Severn wrote:
        I also remember he was horrified by the anti semitism that was becoming apparent in the East End and actually took the step of writing to the Evening paper about what he thought to be an abhorrent development---he took steps to only give his initials and an inaccurate address since he wasnt really supposed to write to the papers as a policeman!
        Last edited by mariab; 07-05-2010, 07:29 PM.
        Best regards,
        Maria

        Comment


        • Maria,

          Evening News Sept 11th 1888.

          Also Jewish Chronical, 1st October 1888...I think.

          Monty
          Monty

          https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

          Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

          http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mariab View Post
            [B]
            And a last question re. City P.C George Hutt, can anyone name the Evening News issue where he complained about ramping antisemitism in the East End, as Natalie Severn wrote? Is it possible to access London 1889 newspapers somewhere online?
            Hi Maria,

            It was in the 11 September 1888 edition, available on the 'press reports' section on casebook.
            Both me and Neil Bell wrote about P.C Hutt in Ripperologist # 103 and followed that up with some more info and a photograph of the man himself in # 110. He was known as 'The Police Poet'.

            Rob

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Monty View Post
              Maria,

              Evening News Sept 11th 1888.

              Also Jewish Chronical, 1st October 1888...I think.

              Monty
              SNAP

              Comment


              • Hi Norma,

                Reading your words about Hutt, I suspect you are taking this info from Rob and my article.

                It must be stressed that the reason for Hutt using a possible false address is purely logical speculation on our (Rob and I) part.

                Hutt was also quite the poet, prolific too. He was also reprimanded for assaulting a prisoner in the dock.

                Monty
                Monty

                https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                Comment


                • Rob,

                  We really gotta start co-ordernating our replies.

                  Monty
                  Monty

                  https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                  Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Monty View Post
                    Rob,

                    We really gotta start co-ordernating our replies.

                    Monty
                    Yeah, people might think we are the same person. Good job we've been seen together in public.

                    Rob

                    Comment


                    • thanks so much for the info re. press reports

                      Monty, Mr. Clack,
                      thank you so much for the info. Colour me a completely moronic newbie, I've been through the “Official documents“ but totally missed that press reports are posted on casebook as well. So sorry for wasting your time by asking before looking!
                      As for P.C Hutt, I've seen his (assumed) photograph on another thread (posted here by Lynn Cates), and I intend to back order a few issues of Ripperologist (esp. issues 113 and 110) to read up on certain things.
                      Last dumb newbie question, what is “The ultimate“ something discussed here on this thread pertaining to Swanson? A book, an article, a dissertation posted here on casebook? On a quick casebook-search/google-search I couldn't locate any ripperological book/dissertation with this title. It sounds like it contains information on the WVC and on the “double event“...
                      Thank you so much, and more apologies,
                      Maria
                      Best regards,
                      Maria

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mariab View Post
                        Monty, Mr. Clack,
                        thank you so much for the info. Colour me a completely moronic newbie, I've been through the “Official documents“ but totally missed that press reports are posted on casebook as well. So sorry for wasting your time by asking before looking!
                        As for P.C Hutt, I've seen his (assumed) photograph on another thread (posted here by Lynn Cates), and I intend to back order a few issues of Ripperologist (esp. issues 113 and 110) to read up on certain things.
                        Last dumb newbie question, what is “The ultimate“ something discussed here on this thread pertaining to Swanson? A book, an article, a dissertation posted here on casebook? On a quick casebook-search/google-search I couldn't locate any ripperological book/dissertation with this title. It sounds like it contains information on the WVC and on the “double event“...
                        Thank you so much, and more apologies,
                        Maria
                        Hi Maria,

                        There's no need to apologise. There's so much info on this site it can be a bit daunting to find.
                        The Hutt photo I posted here:

                        For discussion of general police procedures, officials and police matters that do not have a specific forum.


                        We couldn't say 100% that it is Hutt but we are about 99.9% certain it is him.

                        The Ultimate you refer to would be the book 'The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook' by Stewart Evans and Keith Skinner and contains transcripts of the official police files, the home office files, press reports and many photographs and is (in my opinion) one of the best books on Jack the Ripper and should be on everyone's shelf. I think it is call 'The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion' in the U.S.

                        Rob

                        P.S and please call me Rob. Mr. Clack makes me feel very old
                        Last edited by Rob Clack; 07-05-2010, 08:49 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Makes you feel old Rob?

                          Well Im not the one who is gonna break the news to you.

                          Monty
                          Monty

                          https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                          Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                          http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Monty View Post
                            Makes you feel old Rob?

                            Well Im not the one who is gonna break the news to you.

                            Monty
                            But I'm only 21

                            Rob

                            Comment


                            • Thanks so much for the info, Rob. (I almost assumed “The ultimate“ would be something along the line of a sourcebook by Evans/Skinner, but I got mixed up due to the additional existence of The Jack The Ripper A-Z by Begg, Fido, and Skinner.)
                              I shamefully have to admit I've so far only read (and for some parts: just perused!!) these books online on amazon.com . My budget and frequent mobility at the moment only allow me to buy JUST one of the major works in print, and I've been trying to make up my mind between Sugden, Rumbelow, or perhaps even Begg. (But I have a feeling it'll be Sugden.) I've already ordered Paley (I'm interested in Barnett as a suspect) and a couple of Ripper Notes at my German address to find them when I get there, and it's probably unavoidable that it'll start to accumulate from now on, but everything else ripperological I've ever read so far has been online. I know, cheapskate ! (But I'm very mobile right now, so I have to be careful about expenses and additional purchases ...)
                              Hutt looks kinda like a “good cop“ on picture (despite having indulged in occasional beatings of people on lockup when the mood stroke sometimes, but it's just a perk that comes along with the job. I wish I had that!). I wonder what kind of poetry he wrote, and if it ever got published?
                              Thank you all so much for your patience with answering so many (dumb) questions,
                              Maria
                              Last edited by mariab; 07-05-2010, 09:39 PM.
                              Best regards,
                              Maria

                              Comment


                              • To Monty and Rob: You two together totally crack me up.
                                (And I wish I coulda stayed 28 forever, it's a nice age... Older than that , but a lot younger than that .)
                                Maria
                                Best regards,
                                Maria

                                Comment

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