Plagiarism in The Evil Within - Trevor Marriott (moved discussion)

[Ally]

Apparently Phil, it is as easy as that. Apparently professional integrity, intellectual property and standards have no place in Ripperology.

This is the same group of folks who will split a photo down the middle to keep others from copying their work, horde their knowledge and pitch a fit whenever there is even the suggestion that someone didn't properly credit or attribute their work, pitch a fit because someone found and posted the same article from 1888 they'd been hanging on to for three years without publishing, but if it's someone else's work being blatantly misused, it's just a case of "using too many secondary sources".

Dumbfounded.

P.S I am not saying all Ripperologists are of that sort, I am just absolutely dumbfounded that anyone, ANYONE, much less someone involved in researching and publishing would ever shrug off intellectual property theft.

[Phil H]

...who will split a photo down the middle to keep others from copying their work

Given the risks of plagiarism... which is what you are discussing - surely that is a good idea?

Philip Hutchinson did it with the 1909 picture of Dutfields Yard in his book and I thought it an excellent idea. Had he not done so, I am sure his copyright would have been breached by now - and he had put a lot of effort into obtaining and verifying that photo.

Maybe I am missing your point.

Phil

[Ally]

I am saying simply that Ripperologists as a group are fanatical about protecting their OWN copyright or claim but seem to be shrugging off the breach of other peoples. That was all that paragraph was intended to do.

[Monty]

I do not see how it is being 'shrugged off' Ally,

Marks piece is pretty clear, and he has laid it out for all to decide. So what is expected now?

Monty

[Ally]

This is true. I am referring to a small group and so should not generalize. That is bad on my part and I recognize that. But I find it galling that Mark's character is being attacked, and somehow there is an implication that this was not an investigation worth doing, especially by someone who has in the past pitched a fit over someone else finding the same article from 100 years ago and publishing it when they thought they had priority.

If people have nothing to say that is fine. Sometimes silence is the best option. I just am appalled that anyone would think to question Mark's integrity over this, or contend that it's not a big deal. I imagine, to the people who didn't receive Marriott's advance, but did a large part of the work, it is a very big deal indeed.

[Monty]

Marks character is being attacked predominantly by Trevor, and this is understandable considering it is he who was exposed, its a defence mechanism of his and I think we all (including Mark) recognise that.

Couple that with Trevor's track record of acting this way then we have a predictable response.

I call people as I find them. I have no issue with Mark and find him articulate, funny at times, intelligent and very honest. He has been very supportive to me and he has berated me also for my behaviour. And rightly so as I have been a tit.

Mark is honest. And I cannot think of one person who I know, and who knows Mark, who'd say Mark is any of the things Trevor and others call him.

Yes, those whose work has been used now have a choice to make. It is up to them how to proceed with the matter, and Trevor to decided ho he deals with his side. No one else's in my opinion.

However, I shall decide on if I will part with my cash on any future work by Mr Marriott.....as it has always been.

Monty

[Ally]

All I have to say is reading the responses regarding attribution that some people are making, some of them actual researchers and writers, I am scared stiff at what this means for the future of academia. It appears half of them don't even understand what constitutes plagiarism and what constitutes appropriate attribution.

Christ almighty people, a thanks in the acknowledgement page after you've ripped an entire chapter of other people's material is NOT proper attribution.

It's freaking scary that people don't know this.

[lynn cates]

academia and adjuncts

Hello Ally. Don't mean to highjack but . . .

"I am scared stiff at what this means for the future of academia."

No sarcasm intended, but why do you think that academia even HAS a future?

About 30 years ago, many universities cut back on full time professors and replaced them with contract people. This phenomenon has increased--as many phenomena do--over the years. Back then, at LEAST you needed to be a PhD or ABD to become adjunct. Soon, only an MA in field required. Now, it's MA (any field) but only 18 hours required in teaching field.

Now, it has gotten to the point that some of my colleagues have become laughingstocks amongst students because they do not know the material they "teach." (Try looking at "Ratemyprofessors.com".)

To get a feel for this, look at lists of nations and where they stood educationally then and compare to now. See what I mean?

Cheers.
LC

[Ally]

I recognize that there are systemic problems with academia but that in my opinion leads back to the absolutely idiotic notion that "everyone should go to college". I understand that the dumbing down trend of american academia has directly been attributed to that principle, but I taught at a craptacular community college in the middle of bumblefuk nowhere and the one thing that would STILL absolutely get you booted right out is copyright infringement or plagiarism. Because that is not just a matter of academic principle and honesty (laughable traits in the modern world, I know); it's a matter of legality and lawsuit. There is no institution that I know of, no matter how crappy they are (not talking about online diploma factories) that doesn't teach that plagiarism is a big, big freaking no-no. Freshman comp 101 spends like a week just teaching you how to properly source your materials whether it be by APA standards or other, there is always, ALWAYS a set standard on how to source for that institution and it is rigorously adhered to. When I went to college as an English major I had to learn MLA and then later in Master's coursework I had to switch to APA and if I for a second got the two confused in minor detail, I'd be screwed. It was not even about citing, it was about properly citing. And frankly, I would not have cared if Trevor had properly cited or not, as long as he actually cited and gave credit to the proper authors for the work that they did. He did not do that. There is absolutely no way to know, from reading his book that large portions of it were written by someone else. Several someone elses.

I realize I am harping on this, but I am appalled. I'd cut him major slack if he just admitted he was sorry, but he completely shrugs this off as if was nothing. I get freaked out about karma if I forget to pay for something that was under my purse in the grocery cart and I didn't realize it until I get out to the car. I have to go back to the store to pay for a 20 cent jalapeno pepper. And people look at me like I am crazy when I do that. But that's the standard I apply to taking what is not mine. He took someone else's hard work and took money for it. That's theft and worse than theft of a stereo. In the world of academia, the standard applies, publish or perish. People rely on publishing for their very livelihood, their ideas and work are the foundation of their existence. I consider this a big deal. I may be one of the only ones in the world who does, as I am slowly beginning to realize, but taking someone's work, their sweat and blood and effort and taking money for what you did not produce is just ...wrong. It's wrong, and I am dumbfounded that so many people don't believe it is. I am ...disillusioned, I suppose. And I didn't believe it was possible to be any more disillusioned about my fellow man than I already was.

[lynn cates]

"Well, the world needs ditch diggers too." (Judge Smalls)

Hello Ally. Thanks. I think you are singing my song.

"I recognize that there are systemic problems with academia but that in my opinion leads back to the absolutely idiotic notion that "everyone should go to college"."

Although heretical, a colleague of mine observed recently, "Well, not everyone is cut out for college." (Don't say it aloud, but she was right.)

"the one thing that would STILL absolutely get you booted right out is copyright infringement or plagiarism."

Still will--if it meets the criteria.

"There is absolutely no way to know, from reading his book that large portions of it were written by someone else. Several someone elses."

Can't comment here.

"I realize I am harping on this,"

Not at all. You should hear my choice remarks about students.

"And I didn't believe it was possible to be any more disillusioned about my fellow man than I already was."

Ah, you must be rather young. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Chris]

Marks character is being attacked predominantly by Trevor, and this is understandable considering it is he who was exposed, its a defence mechanism of his and I think we all (including Mark) recognise that.

Yes, sadly that is only to be expected from Trevor Marriott.

But I do think it's quite deplorable that one or two others elsewhere have criticised Mark Ripper for his article. I have just read it and thought it was a scrupulously objective presentation of the facts - which speak for themselves very clearly indeed. And if those individuals don't feel that we should be told about facts like these, which go to the heart of the credibility of a prominent Ripper researcher, I can only marvel.

[Monty]

Very disturbing Chris,

Monty

[Ally]

And if those individuals don't feel that we should be told about facts like these, which go to the heart of the credibility of a prominent Ripper researcher, I can only marvel.

This was one of the main things that puzzled me. I could not believe people were questioning WHY this article was published in Ripperology. People do understand the concept of investigative journalism and academic rigor and making sure that foul play does not flourish within the academic ranks, don't they? I mean, seriously who questions it when anyone is exposed for plagiarism or foul doings and says, 'well why was this even brought to light'?

On another site someone actually had the gall to say, (paraphrasing) "well it's not like those authors were going to get money for their work, so what does it matter if Trevor used it". Really? REALLY??!!! So if someone else decides I am not likely to make use of my car, can they come and lift that too? Assuming they'll utilize it to their financial gain since I am clearly not? I mean for god's sake, I cannot believe that someone actually argued 'they weren't using it, so who cares if Trevor stole it'. I just...splutter.

[Magpie]

Just as an aside to what Ally was saying, and not referring to any particular case, I find it sad and alarming that in this age where the consequences of violating copyright are so dire, and there is an entire industry devoted to finding and prosecuting such violations, there seems to be a depressing decrease in people's understand of how copyrights, and plagiarism, work. People seem to honestly believe that "because I want to" is a valid "fair use" argument.

I remembered when we all watched with appalled fascination as another infamous Ripper "author" produced a book that contained almost nothing but pilfered prose--today such as event probably wouldn't evince more than a shrug and a rolling of the eyes.

[lynn cates]

academic procedure

Hello Ally. On the other hand, when a student is caught plagiarising, we must determine first:

1. Is it negligent (as offering a paper without footnotes).

2. Willful copying and pasting another's work.

In either case, we must go to the student, IN PRIVATE, explain the infraction, then assess the appropriate penalty.

I caught a student once, in an electronic class, who merely copied and pasted another student's post. I sent a private message asking why she had done this. She came clean and received a zero for that assignment.

By rule I am forbidden to post a message in the classroom along the lines of, "Did you see what "Mary" did? What vermin! What ought to be done to her?" (Fantasies don't count--heh-heh.)

Cheers.
LC