Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

I'm not in the least bit upset.

You appear to have mistaken me for someone who actually gives a rat's arse about what you have to say.

Sayonara,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Thanks. Good to know.

You already knew what I think of your book Simon. Stop pretending to be upset.

And you can't even think up an original epithet with which to criticize my book.

I could think up plenty but am happy to stick with what I've already said. I didn't want you to pretend to take offence in order to avoid any further debate, flounce out of the thread and say "Goodbye".

Goodbye.

Oh.....

[David Orsam]

And here's another reference, this time to engravings in the nineteenth century and the artistic licence that was applied to make gruesome events more palatable

I'm sure that's right John. In this case the gruesome aspect was round the back. What's just ludicrous is Simon posting an engraving to make some kind of unspecified point - I don't quite think he ever told us what it was - and then Phil then saying the engraving doesn't look quite real. Well no, it's an engraving!

[David Orsam]

I find the whole scenario most odd. A body washed and cleaned yet dressed..fully dressed..and sat on a chair..tied up..after death..for id purposes? Sounds incredulous to me. Sorry.

I don't know why you're apologising to me Phil. I don't care.

It was Simon who produced the engraving (as a way of deflecting attention from the absence of any evidence showing Pigott didn't commit suicide).

I mean, fine, if you like, it's a bogus engraving. It wasn't taken from a photograph. Pigott was really lying naked on a mortuary slab when he was identified. So what?

It has absolutely nothing to do with how Pigott died.

[David Orsam]

Please..the supposition of stuffing a board down his back is unworthy. .and completely without any form of evidence.

Why do I need evidence? I'm just giving you an example of the kind of thing that could be done to support the posture if they wanted to do it. Clearly you don't like it.

The posture doesn't even need to be maintained for more than a few seconds. You're totally overthinking this Phil.

[John G]

And here's another reference, this time to engravings in the nineteenth century and the artistic licence that was applied to make gruesome events more palatable: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...icence&f=false

[John G]

David

If the engraving is from a photograph..which it is.. there is no way the head would support itself WITHOUT being held up. The head is not being held up in the photographic engraving. And..the head would slump forward onto the chest. There is nothing supporting it.

Please..the supposition of stuffing a board down his back is unworthy. .and completely without any form of evidence.

The weight of the slumped head would draw the shoulders forward. They are not. Especially as the arms are not tied.

I find the whole scenario most odd. A body washed and cleaned yet dressed..fully dressed..and sat on a chair..tied up..after death..for id purposes? Sounds incredulous to me. Sorry.


Phil

Except that engravings were often subject to artistic licence: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...icence&f=false

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

"That's the precise reason why your book [is] no more than elaborate balderdash. You discard solid evidence that you don't like in favour of wild, unexplained, speculation - usually hints and winks - based on nothing more than your silly and paranoid suspicions."

Thanks. Good to know.

And you can't even think up an original epithet with which to criticize my book.

Goodbye.

Simon

[Phil Carter]

David

If the engraving is from a photograph..which it is.. there is no way the head would support itself WITHOUT being held up. The head is not being held up in the photographic engraving. And..the head would slump forward onto the chest. There is nothing supporting it.

Please..the supposition of stuffing a board down his back is unworthy. .and completely without any form of evidence.

The weight of the slumped head would draw the shoulders forward. They are not. Especially as the arms are not tied.

I find the whole scenario most odd. A body washed and cleaned yet dressed..fully dressed..and sat on a chair..tied up..after death..for id purposes? Sounds incredulous to me. Sorry.


Phil

[David Orsam]

David

Although I do not claim expertise..as you put it.. I have sadly seen quite a few dead bodies in my life. And I do know that muscles relax upon death, before any stiffness comes on..which lasts a limited amount of time.
The neck muscles of a dead person would not support the head in an upright sitting position. Neither would the shoulder muscles support the upper body.
If the engraving. .from a photograph as Simon shows.. is of a dead person, having died by suicide in the manner described, with the exit wound in the place you quote, there is no way on God's earth the neck could support the head in an upright sitting position without being affixed as exampled by the Eddowes mortuary photograph.

It is without doubt a highly unusual method to display a dead body for identification in a mortuary. I am sure Spanish mortuary attendants had a bit more savvy than to prop a dead body up on the chair..After having washed and cleaned the body..fully clothed..and draped a large piece of cloth over the body.

Like I said..all I am doing is dealing with your interpretation of the photographic engraving.
All in all, highly unlikely. Physics David. Physics.

Well they might have had the idea of sticking a plank of wood up the back of his shirt to support the posture, do you think?

But even if they didn't and you are right, so what?

The witness who went to see Pigott's corpse at the mortuary said in the newspaper article that the top half of his body was covered with a piece of cloth when he arrived. And you can see the cloth in the engraving. So even if the head droops a bit under the cloth so what? When the cloth is removed the mortuary attendant simply lifts the head and identification is possible.

My point - just to repeat it - was that the rope or cord definitely prevents the body slumping and falling to the ground. It's just not possible for that to happen. That's physics!

And that alone explains its use perfectly well.

[Phil Carter]

David

Although I do not claim expertise..as you put it.. I have sadly seen quite a few dead bodies in my life. And I do know that muscles relax upon death, before any stiffness comes on..which lasts a limited amount of time.
The neck muscles of a dead person would not support the head in an upright sitting position. Neither would the shoulder muscles support the upper body.
If the engraving. .from a photograph as Simon shows.. is of a dead person, having died by suicide in the manner described, with the exit wound in the place you quote, there is no way on God's earth the neck could support the head in an upright sitting position without being affixed as exampled by the Eddowes mortuary photograph.

It is without doubt a highly unusual method to display a dead body for identification in a mortuary. I am sure Spanish mortuary attendants had a bit more savvy than to prop a dead body up on the chair..After having washed and cleaned the body..fully clothed..and draped a large piece of cloth over the body.

Like I said..all I am doing is dealing with your interpretation of the photographic engraving.
All in all, highly unlikely. Physics David. Physics.


Phil

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

"Pigott committed suicide by placing a pistol in his mouth and pulling the trigger."

If, other than your steadfast belief in official versions of events, you have any real evidence that Pigott committed suicide, please feel free to enlighten us.

Ha! You've got to be kidding me. So the accounts of eye-witnesses in sworn declarations, the results of a post-mortem and a Spanish judicial inquiry are not good enough for you then? Even the newspaper account of a witness who saw the back of Pigott's head where a bullet had passed through isn't good enough for you.

And you have not one single piece of evidence to show that Pigott did anything other than commit suicide. Not one!

You daren't even step forward and say what you think did happen.

That's the precise reason why your book no more than elaborate balderdash. You discard solid evidence that you don't like in favour of wild, unexplained, speculation - usually hints and winks - based on nothing more than your silly and paranoid suspicions.

[David Orsam]

Hi All,

Remember all those stories about Pigott agreeing to go off with the Spanish inspector, but having to return to his room to collect his hat/business cards/coat, after which a gunshot was heard and there he was laying on the floor, dead?

Read on.

The Times, 4th March 1889—

[ATTACH]18150[/ATTACH]

And what you've quoted is deceptive in any case.

The Times of 4th March 1889 reported two different accounts of Pigott's death on that day. One from its own correspondent in Madrid dated 2 March and one from a news agency from that news agency's Madrid correspondent. The one you have quoted is from the latter. There are differences in the two accounts. Differences that would have been perfectly obvious to the editor of the Times and to the readers of the newspaper. But that wasn't a problem because differences in accounts involving news stories - especially in a foreign country - were normal and expected. No doubt that is why the Times printed two different versions. It's virtually impossible for a reporter to get everything right. The facts would be - and were - established at a judicial inquiry in Spain in due course.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

"Pigott committed suicide by placing a pistol in his mouth and pulling the trigger."

If, other than your steadfast belief in official versions of events, you have any real evidence that Pigott committed suicide, please feel free to enlighten us.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

At the moment Im trying to come to terms with your thoughts about the body not falling on the floor and stop it slumping.

Im sorry David..but I maintain that the rope around the chest would not stop the shoulders slumping forward..nor the head either. In that precise position the body would act in accordance with gravity. .and fall forward. To enable it to be kept upright..another form of affixing the body would be needed.
I remind you that in order for the Eddowes face to be shown her hair was affixed to the wall..pulling the head upwards.

Piggots head would have fallen forward onto his chest. And the ropes cannot contain the upper body muscle relaxation or neck muscle relaxation.

No offence David. It is quite simple physics.

Have you ever done it Phil? No, I thought not.

I'm sure they were not stupid in Madrid and they used a method which ensured the body remained upright.

So you will have to forgive me in not accepting your expertise the matter.

But I'd really like to know what you think was going on here. Do you accept the engraving and think Pigott was actually alive???? In the mortuary?

Or do you doubt the engraving and think it was not based on a photograph after all?

And do you doubt the witness who said that the corpse of Pigott was "fixed to the back of the chair by a piece of cord around the body"?

Hey you know what Phil? Maybe you're right. Maybe the Spanish authorities in the mortuary just liked to tie cord round corpses, place them on chairs and then watch them slowly slump down onto their chests. Great fun.

What does it matter?

Pigott still committed suicide by shooting himself in the head and all these ridiculous diversionary points won't change that fact.