Deconstructing Jack by Simon Wood

[David Orsam]

Hi All,

Remember all those stories about Pigott agreeing to go off with the Spanish inspector, but having to return to his room to collect his hat/business cards/coat, after which a gunshot was heard and there he was laying on the floor, dead?

I see you are back to your silly old tactic of finding inconsistencies in newspaper reports of an incident to then try and cast doubt on the entire story.

Simon, you can always find inconsistencies in accounts of factual events in newspapers. Especially when journalists are reporting something which happened in a foreign country. It means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Pigott committed suicide by placing a pistol in his mouth and pulling the trigger.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary? No, I thought not.

[Phil Carter]

I said it was to stop it slumping and falling to the floor.

What do you think the purpose of it was then Phil?

I'd like to hear your ideas on the subject.

At the moment Im trying to come to terms with your thoughts about the body not falling on the floor and stop it slumping.

Im sorry David..but I maintain that the rope around the chest would not stop the shoulders slumping forward..nor the head either. In that precise position the body would act in accordance with gravity. .and fall forward. To enable it to be kept upright..another form of affixing the body would be needed.
I remind you that in order for the Eddowes face to be shown her hair was affixed to the wall..pulling the head upwards.

Piggots head would have fallen forward onto his chest. And the ropes cannot contain the upper body muscle relaxation or neck muscle relaxation.

No offence David. It is quite simple physics.


Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Remember all those stories about Pigott agreeing to go off with the Spanish inspector, but having to return to his room to collect his hat/business cards/coat, after which a gunshot was heard and there he was laying on the floor, dead?

Read on.

The Times, 4th March 1889—



Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Allow me to quote you David

"...with Piggot blowing the back of his head off"

That would leave more than just a scar on his bald head. "Where the bullet passed through"

You're quoting me, who was never there in 1889, to cast doubt on Pigott's suicide?

It's ridiculous Phil.

The witness expressly said that he saw the place where the bullet passed through. You've just quoted it yourself!

It's crazy. On the one hand you seem to be relying on a witness to say Pigott didn't shoot himself in the head when that same witness is categorically stating that he can see the part of the head through which the bullet passed!

So we have a witness confirming that Pigott shot himself in the head. We have the post-mortem, we have the sworn declarations of the witnesses who were present when it happened, we have the judicial inquiry etc. and against that we have you challenging the witness who saw the corpse who expressly says that there was the mark of a bullet having passed through Pigott's head.

You need to face facts Phil. This was a clear cut suicide.

[David Orsam]

If the idea was to keep the body upright..the rope would not just be around the chest. The shoulders would fall forward..as would the head.

I said it was to stop it slumping and falling to the floor.

What do you think the purpose of it was then Phil?

I'd like to hear your ideas on the subject.

[David Orsam]

And if the "real damage" as you put it would be at the back of the head..a small "scar" hardly fits said observation. Sorry.

Oh come off it Phil. I've already quoted from the reported post-mortem result:

"The doctors say the bullet penetrated the roof of the mouth, and, destroying the base of the skull, penetrated the lower part of the brain, injuring one lobe. It then emerged, causing terrible fractures of the skull."

Most of the damage there is internal but clearly there was an exit wound.

I seriously can't imagine what you think happened to Pigott.

His corpse was being paraded in front of visitors for anyone to inspect. There IS evidence at the back of his head "showing where the bullet had passed" according to the eye witness (or did you miss that bit?).

What more do you actually want? We have two witnesses who were present when it happened, we have a post-mortem, we have a judicial inquiry in Spain, we have a pistol that was prised from his dead hand. We have internal high level British government correspondence referring to Pigott's death as a suicide.

I'm sorry the eye-witness didn't describe the back of the head in sufficiently gruesome detail for you Phil - but really Phil there comes a time when you have to accept reality.

[Phil Carter]

Allow me to quote you David

"...with Piggot blowing the back of his head off"

That would leave more than just a scar on his bald head. "Where the bullet passed through"



Phil

[Phil Carter]

If the idea was to keep the body upright..the rope would not just be around the chest. The shoulders would fall forward..as would the head.

Phil

[David Orsam]

David,

Are you seriously suggesting the dead body was tied to a chair? In a mortuary?
First time I've ever heard of that one I must admit.

Yes obviously.

And it's obviously for the purpose and ease of identification bearing in mind the importance of establishing Pigott's identity or rather confirming to the world that he really was dead.

[Phil Carter]

And if the "real damage" as you put it would be at the back of the head..a small "scar" hardly fits said observation. Sorry.


Phil

[Phil Carter]

David,

Are you seriously suggesting the dead body was tied to a chair? In a mortuary?
First time I've ever heard of that one I must admit.

As far as the slight injury marks on the face are concerned, I refer to the written article.


Phil

[David Orsam]

Corpses in mortuaries are usually laid out flat.

Oh really Simon, what amazing knowledge.

But evidently it didn't happen in this case in Madrid in 1889 did it?

[David Orsam]

I also note the very slight injuries to the face. Extremely slight given a gun had just gone off in his mouth methinks.

If you are talking about the engraving Phil you can note whatever you like but you are not looking at a photograph.

The eye witness quoted in the news article, which Simon has posted, expressly states that Pigott's corpse had a swollen upper lip and nose, which you can't expect to see in a picture of that kind of detail. But the real damage would obviously have been at the back of the head which you can't see.

If you don't mind me saying so, it's utterly ridiculous to do as Simon appears to have done which is to doubt the sworn declarations of the two independent witnesses who were present while Pigott took his own life, the reported post-mortem results and the Spanish judicial inquiry on the basis of an engraving. And one, to boot, which is in no way inconsistent with Pigott blowing the back of his head off!

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Corpses in mortuaries are usually laid out flat.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Err..if he was dead..tied to the chair in the mortuary.. Please explain the point in tying him up after death?

Just think about for a second Phil.

If his dead body wasn't tied to the chair what would have happened?

Yes, due to gravity it would have slumped and fallen to the floor.

Thus defeating the object of the exercise which was to have him in a position so that his body could be identified by visitors to the mortuary.