The Five

[Tani]

I'm listening to a documentary based on this book The Five: The Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper: Amazon.co.uk: Rubenhold, Hallie: 9780857524485: Books

It sounds very far-fetched and has a clear feminist slant, patriarchy blah. It fails to mention basic facts like Polly having stolen the bedding. It makes out as though these women are angels who never did anything wrong.

It seems highly fictionalized.

[Sam Flynn]

I was looking forward to this book, but it so annoyed me that it's one of only two I've permanently deleted from my ebook account. The claim that Rubenhold was the first to focus on "The Five" was sheer nonsense, as the best histories of the case (Sugden, Begg et al) had already written sensitively and sympathetically about the victims, and we had the likes of Neal Shelden researching and publishing extremely useful biographical information. So much for an "untold" story!

Rubenhold's revisionism is an insult to The Five's memory and the hardships they had to endure.

[erobitha]

I'm listening to a documentary based on this book The Five: The Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper: Amazon.co.uk: Rubenhold, Hallie: 9780857524485: Books

It sounds very far-fetched and has a clear feminist slant, patriarchy blah. It fails to mention basic facts like Polly having stolen the bedding. It makes out as though these women are angels who never did anything wrong.

It seems highly fictionalized.

There are one or two posts on our friend Ms Rubenhold.

Whilst I am not a fan of her woke-driven agenda to ignore facts to promote a certain narrative, I found some of her research useful. I used some of her research in my own fictional book.

She has been successful commercially because she knows what a modern audience wants to consume. They like their true crime soaked in moralistic finger-wagging at all those who do not see the world as they do.

[Tani]

They like their true crime soaked in modern moral awareness.

It's definitely not mine

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Tani,

For what can only have been commercial reasons she decided that she need an enemy and a cause so she chose ripperologists (I’ve never liked that word to be honest) She painted us as heartless misogynists who either disregarded the victims or worse, revelled in their horrific murders. So she became the ‘hero’ in her own cause and because being against misogyny is obviously a good thing many jumped on board to support her as they just assumed that she was right without bothering to check. Facts became secondary to the ‘story.’ As Sam said, everything that we know about the victims lives has been discovered by ripperologists. Research is still going on with the ‘holy grail’ being to find the real Mary Kelly and much of that research has been done by a woman. I’ve never seen anything on here or JtRForums that’s in any way disrespectful to the victims or women in general. Neither Ally on here or Steve over there would put up with it for a second.

Then she edited the evidence on Nichols to make her point which is hardly to her credit. Her theory that the killer simply came upon women sleeping rough isn’t born out by the facts. Kelly and Chapman refute it and if Stride was a victim she could hardly have found a worse place to bed down for the night. These women were poor but they weren’t stupid. They wouldn’t bed down on a police beat, they knew the nooks and crannies. And the fact that some of the women tried to earn money by other means is no news to anyone. We’ve known it for years. Us saying that they engaged in prostitution isn’t an insult. It’s a fact. It was that or starve for those women most of the time.

Its sad when an agenda garners support with those involved not being interested in looking at the facts or listening to other voices.

You are now a member of the bad guys Tani (according to some)

ps. I don’t do social media but I understand that she’s had some nasty comments on there. Totally unacceptable if course but I don’t know why those people have been labelled as ripperologists? It’s not what anyone on here would call them.

[Tani]

Hi Tani,

For what can only have been commercial reasons she decided that she need an enemy and a cause so she chose ripperologists (I’ve never liked that word to be honest) She painted us as heartless misogynists who either disregarded the victims or worse, revelled in their horrific murders. So she became the ‘hero’ in her own cause and because being against misogyny is obviously a good thing many jumped on board to support her as they just assumed that she was right without bothering to check. Facts became secondary to the ‘story.’ As Sam said, everything that we know about the victims lives has been discovered by ripperologists. Research is still going on with the ‘holy grail’ being to find the real Mary Kelly and much of that research has been done by a woman. I’ve never seen anything on here or JtRForums that’s in any way disrespectful to the victims or women in general. Neither Ally on here or Steve over there would put up with it for a second.

Then she edited the evidence on Nichols to make her point which is hardly to her credit. Her theory that the killer simply came upon women sleeping rough isn’t born out by the facts. Kelly and Chapman refute it and if Stride was a victim she could hardly have found a worse place to bed down for the night. These women were poor but they weren’t stupid. They wouldn’t bed down on a police beat, they knew the nooks and crannies. And the fact that some of the women tried to earn money by other means is no news to anyone. We’ve known it for years. Us saying that they engaged in prostitution isn’t an insult. It’s a fact. It was that or starve for those women most of the time.

Its sad when an agenda garners support with those involved not being interested in looking at the facts or listening to other voices.

You are now a member of the bad guys Tani (according to some)

ps. I don’t do social media but I understand that she’s had some nasty comments on there. Totally unacceptable if course but I don’t know why those people have been labelled as ripperologists? It’s not what anyone on here would call them.

I've been out of the game too long!

Goodness, now people are trying to do woke Ripperology. You and Sam are quite right that this does injustice to the victims and ironically makes prostitution out to be a worse thing, rather than accepting it as a fact of these women's lives. I have never felt any misogyny in Ripper circles - most people are here not for sick thrills, but because we care deeply about what happened to these women, regardless of their means of work.

If this is now the case, I am a proud baddie Ripperologist, familiar with the main sources, the real life-stories of the women, and am glad to have discovered cheap tat like this and how to stay away from it. I am not on social media either and wouldn't want to give her any nastiness, but I would tell others interested to stay away from her fiction. It is incredibly disrespectful to Polly, Annie, Liz, Cathy and Mary

[Tani]

I was looking forward to this book, but it so annoyed me that it's one of only two I've permanently deleted from my ebook account. The claim that Rubenhold was the first to focus on "The Five" was sheer nonsense, as the best histories of the case (Sugden, Begg et al) had already written sensitively and sympathetically about the victims, and we had the likes of Neal Shelden researching and publishing extremely useful biographical information. So much for an "untold" story!

Rubenhold's revisionism is an insult to The Five's memory and the hardships they had to endure.

I'll need to check this out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll need to check this out.

I only just noticed that you’re one of the longest serving members here. Not quite as long as Sam or Ally but 9 years longer than me. I’ve just made one or two posts more than you.

[Tani]

I only just noticed that you’re one of the longest serving members here. Not quite as long as Sam or Ally but 9 years longer than me. I’ve just made one or two posts more than you.

I spent a long time reading and lurking. I was 13 when I joined. I realised I had very little ability to communicate effectively here as I hadn't the knowledge base and still have trouble keeping up with some names and so on. My Ripper A to Z has been so useful, if outdated (it's a 1992 copy). I've gained a lot of knowledge from this place.

I can finally write posts!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I spent a long time reading and lurking. I was 13 when I joined. I realised I had very little ability to communicate effectively here as I hadn't the knowledge base and still have trouble keeping up with some names and so on. My Ripper A to Z has been so useful, if outdated (it's a 1992 copy). I've gained a lot of knowledge from this place.

I can finally write posts!!!

Good to have you back Tani

[barnflatwyngarde]

I spent a long time reading and lurking. I was 13 when I joined. I realised I had very little ability to communicate effectively here as I hadn't the knowledge base and still have trouble keeping up with some names and so on. My Ripper A to Z has been so useful, if outdated (it's a 1992 copy). I've gained a lot of knowledge from this place.

I can finally write posts!!!

This case always drags you back in Tani.
It's like a mobius strip, there's absolutely no escape.

Don't feel inhibited in posting or replying to posts, everyone sees the case through their own personal prism.

[Tani]

This case always drags you back in Tani.
It's like a mobius strip, there's absolutely no escape.

Don't feel inhibited in posting or replying to posts, everyone sees the case through their own personal prism.

Thanks

[Fiver]

I’ve never seen anything on here or JtRForums that’s in any way disrespectful to the victims or women in general. Neither Ally on here or Steve over there would put up with it for a second.

While I mostly agree with this, there have been posters portraying Maria Lechmere in the most negative manner possible to brute force her, and by extension her son, into the 1988 FBI profile.

Then she edited the evidence on Nichols to make her point which is hardly to her credit. Her theory that the killer simply came upon women sleeping rough isn’t born out by the facts. Kelly and Chapman refute it and if Stride was a victim she could hardly have found a worse place to bed down for the night.

That's an excellent point. Stride lying down to sleep in a pile of mud is laughable. It's even more laughable when you consider mud may have been a euphemism - there was a pony that regularly came into the yard.

[Herlock Sholmes]

While I mostly agree with this, there have been posters portraying Maria Lechmere in the most negative manner possible to brute force her, and by extension her son, into the 1988 FBI profile.

I didn’t know that Fiver. Like The Five though it’s the problem with having an agenda of course and the lengths that some will go to to make things ‘fit.’

That's an excellent point. Stride lying down to sleep in a pile of mud is laughable. It's even more laughable when you consider mud may have been a euphemism - there was a pony that regularly came into the yard.

And as if the killer walked along Hanbury Street checking for unlocked doors, walking through the passage to another unlocked door and then…what a bit of luck, a woman sleeping in someone’s backyard!

[Geddy2112]

And as if the killer walked along Hanbury Street checking for unlocked doors, walking through the passage to another unlocked door and then…what a bit of luck, a woman sleeping in someone’s backyard!

All whilst parking his unattended cart round the corner since he was actually on the clock... it's amazing really, one might say unbelievable.