Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect - Rob House

[Chris]

I originally wondered if there might be a back entrance too, but I doubt it.

Yes, I agree. I think the only realistic way in and out of the workshop would have been through the house.

[robhouse]

Very interesting, thanks for the map Chris, it makes me wonder if there was a back entrance? And the back abuts to a playground and school........hmm...might be a nice place to get cleaned up............I wonder if the cops patrolled the playground....? If Koz had to go through the front of the house after nightly sojourns that might arouse the wrath and suspicions of the family.............a back entrance would be ideal for someone hiding something.........

Greg

I originally wondered if there might be a back entrance too, but I doubt it.

RH

[GregBaron]

Back door?

Very interesting, thanks for the map Chris, it makes me wonder if there was a back entrance? And the back abuts to a playground and school........hmm...might be a nice place to get cleaned up............I wonder if the cops patrolled the playground....? If Koz had to go through the front of the house after nightly sojourns that might arouse the wrath and suspicions of the family.............a back entrance would be ideal for someone hiding something.........

Greg

[Chris]

At one point I was trying to get my hands on the Goad's Fire Insurance map for Greenfield Street, and I never got around to it. These maps are very detailed and might show something interesting. Yes... I am a visual person too. I am guessing that there would not be a back entrance. The family (Isaac's family) lived in the house, which was a separate building. The workshop was in the backyard. The map of Greenfield Street I had in the book is based on the 1894 ordinance map of London... so it gives you an idea. It seems that there was a bit of a space between the main house and the workshop. But the Goad map would certainly be much more detailed.

We don't have a copy of the contemporary Goad Plan, but we do have a copy of the one from 1938, courtesy of Rob Clack. (The layout of number 74 is identical to that in the 1890 version.)

[robhouse]

At one point I was trying to get my hands on the Goad's Fire Insurance map for Greenfield Street, and I never got around to it. These maps are very detailed and might show something interesting. Yes... I am a visual person too. I am guessing that there would not be a back entrance. The family (Isaac's family) lived in the house, which was a separate building. The workshop was in the backyard. The map of Greenfield Street I had in the book is based on the 1894 ordinance map of London... so it gives you an idea. It seems that there was a bit of a space between the main house and the workshop. But the Goad map would certainly be much more detailed.

Rob H

[GregBaron]

Sneak in from the back yard?

Excellent Rob,

So obviously we don't know if others slept in the shop and of course this would make some difference to a 'ripper'. Does this mean the family had quarters elsewhere in another home or in the front of the shop? What about coming or going from the back of the shop? Is there a yard? How far away is the adjoining street? I'm just trying to get in my mind how Koz may have moved about if he indeed was the fiend? If I could see a visual diagram of all this it would help. Not asking for that but I'll look at some maps and try to get a feel. Like some, I do well with pictures........

Thanks,

More to come.............

Greg

[robhouse]

Hi Greg,

We can make some inference about the layout and characteristics of Isaac's shop from descriptions of the shops of Isaac's neighbors (in Booth's notebooks). So in all likelihood the shop was probably laid out somewhat as follows:

about 25 ft by 30 feet total dimensions
a sky light extending the length of ceiling with several "ventilators"
one water closet
one sink at least
a coke fire stove and perhaps a fireplace built into the wall
walls made of matchboard
lit by several gaslights (for working nights in winter)
perhaps a kitchen(?)

There were 14 total employees. This probably broke down approximately as follows:
3 machinists, 2 pressers, 2 baisters, and several female workers (5 general hands, 2 buttonholers) --- this is an approximate guess, based on similar sized shops on the same street.

Here is a description of the shop of Isaac's neighbor Mr. Rosen at 71 Greenfield St.

"The four machines were ranged along the side of the shop. The two pressers tables were at the further end of the shop. In the center the baisters' boards were placed and ajoined the master's table, while the girls were seated at a low table at the side nearest the door."

Of course it is not known if Aaron slept in the shop, although as I explain in the book, there are some sources that suggest this might have been the case. It would make some sense if the family was concerned about Aaron's insanity, and wanted to keep him at a distance. It would fit with Anderson's remark about the Ripper having a place where he could "go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret." Assuming there was a similar hall, connecting the street door to the yard, I should think that Aaron could come and go from the shop without disturbing the rest of the household. And presumably, he could wash off the blood in the sink.

I am not sure exactly how employees would typically sleep in the shop... I assume it was on cots. But this may have been more common in home workshops, and with poorer tailors (I assume).

I hope that helps a bit.

Rob H

[GregBaron]

Slip in and Out?

Rob,

I'd be interested in knowing what the back of a tailoring shop might have looked like and if Koz really came and went from such a place where would he sleep and what degree of privacy would he have and where's the privy etc....I know you may not know this either but the layout of the tailoring shops on Greenfield street and the idea of Koz being able to come and go and clean up etc... in relative peace is something I have pondered? I have more to ask but I'm in a hurry and must be off now but that's a starter....BTW, enjoyed your book very much....


Greg

[mariab]

Hope it doesn't sound disrespectful if I said that I've packed the book along for a one week trip to the beach and hope to read it very soon – just need to re-read Sugden first. Can't wait to absorb the discussion of Sagar/Sims vs. Swanson/Anderson/Macnaghten.

[robhouse]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their comments on the book. I have been sort of laying low so as to allow others to discuss the ideas I raised in the book without my input. But since I see this thread has stalled, I was just wondering if anyone had any questions or comments they would like to address to me. I would be happy to discuss anything.

Rob H

[ChrisGeorge]

..... Another impressive inclusion was the analogy of the Green River Killer and Koz and how the top investigator of the California case knew Gary Ridgeway was guilty but didn’t have the evidence. When the evidence arrived he was not surprised in the least.

These were the things I found most impressive along with the discussion of the police surveillance of a mysterious suspect on Butcher’s row. All in all a worthy addition to the Ripper library. Hope I didn’t spoil anything for anyone…..

Greg

I also liked the discussion of the Green River Killer case which made for a neat ending to the book. Of course Gary Ridgeway had been interviewed by the police before his final arrest, something that often happens in serial killer cases vide long-distance lorry driver Peter Sutcliffe aka the Yorkshire Ripper of the 1970's to early 1980's, who was questioned several times by the police before he was captured.

I do think Ripperologists make a mistake in being too Ripper-centric and not taking into account of other serial killer cases. On the other hand, any close parallel between the dragnet/investigation of the Green River Killer case and what was done in the case of the Whitechapel murders is not really feasible based on what we know of those cases.

That is, we know what the police had on Ridgeway but we cannot know what if anything the police of 1888 and the years thereafter had on Aaron Kosminski or other suspects other than a strong suspicion. My hunch is that they didn't have very much in the way of evidence and that "Kosminski" was more a type who could have done the murders rather than that he actually did the crimes.

Chris

[GregBaron]

Some New Angles...

I agree with the Good Michael’s comments on Rob’s book. Obviously the sections that are new to us are the most interesting. There’s an excellent section on Jewish East End tailors and the sweatshops and contentious political situation that boiled over the cauldron.

The cobbling together of the shards of the Batty Street Lodger story into something comprehensible is impressive. He may not be right but the weaving of circumstantial evidence into a tapestry is Holmes-ian for sure.

In addition, the discussion of serial killing schizophrenics and the knowledge we’ve acquired over the decades is great food for thought. New stuff here for me which made me re-examine my previous prejudices.

Another impressive inclusion was the analogy of the Green River Killer and Koz and how the top investigator of the California case knew Gary Ridgeway was guilty but didn’t have the evidence. When the evidence arrived he was not surprised in the least.

These were the things I found most impressive along with the discussion of the police surveillance of a mysterious suspect on Butcher’s row. All in all a worthy addition to the Ripper library. Hope I didn’t spoil anything for anyone…..

Greg

[mariab]

I'm about to pack a little trolley case for a 3 week trip, and Rob House's book is most firmly going in.

Finally, Rob's little piece about his trip to Klodawa (sp?) and his realization that there was really no reason to be there rang so true for me and my personal travel experiences. Often one goes to a place to be in the footsteps of another only to find that the book or magazine article that has inspired he journey was good enough or better than the journey.

Boy, does this post resonate...

First, the extensive writing about the Batty Street Lodger was the first time I had seen probably everything available on that particular item put together in one spot and in a coherent fashion.

Do you mean there's new research after the (impressive) old piece by Gavin Bromley and Debra Arif's/Tom Wescott's latest important finds? I seem to recall something about Rob House looking for an earlier start of the bloody shirt/lodger saga at Ms. Kür's. Maybe he did find something?

Next, I enjoyed the combining of the Sagar and Sims stories into the Swanson, Anderson, and Macnaghten components to make a plausible story about the low-class Jew idea. Rob put it all together without forcing anything and without making any bold assertions of Kosminski's guilt.

Looking forward to reading the Swanson/Anderson/Macnaghten/Sagar/Sims part, and especially looking forward to Rob House's research results pertaining to asylum records.

[JtRMordke]

Absolutely brilliant book.
In fact all the Ripper books that I've read have since been borrowed from the library, but obviously being compelled by the suspect, I had to buy it along with the A-Z which I bought to save on postage. Although already having high hopes for the book, it exceeded my expectations and has been the best read I've come across in a long time. Despite being not the fastest of readers and piled with revision for various exams, I have rarely been so occupied by a book, and I must say, I agreed with everything proposed which is somewhat rare for me. In fact, many of the assumptions addressed in the book were along the lines of what I had been thinking to begin with, and not only did this book justify my opinions, but it also provided even more evidence dare I say, supporting my belief that Kozminski was most likely to be Jack the Ripper, although just as Rob put, I don't think that there will be any evidence uncovered that is solid enough to convict anyone if they failed to do so in 1888.
I must thank Rob House tremendously for this read which has been a most fascinating volume to delve into.

[The Good Michael]

I just got back to Minnesota and the first day back, bought Rob's book. It's terrific stuff.

I just wanted to talk about two or three things that I enjoyed thoroughly. I may have to re-read it, as I whipped through it in under two hours and may have missed a bit.

First, the extensive writing about the Batty Street Lodger was the first time I had seen probably everything available on that particular item put together in one spot and in a coherent fashion.

Next, I enjoyed the combining of the Sagar and Sims stories into the Swanson, Anderson, and Macnaghten components to make a plausible story about the low-class Jew idea. Rob put it all together without forcing anything and without making any bold assertions of Kosminski's guilt. The whole thing was admirable and compelling.

Finally, Rob's little piece about his trip to Klodawa (sp?) and his realization that there was really no reason to be there rang so true for me and my personal travel experiences. Often one goes to a place to be in the footsteps of another only to find that the book or magazine article that has inspired he journey was good enough or better than the journey.

All told, it was a great piece of work and he got a lot of mileage out of a suspect that had so little information. I know that he left out several things about Kosminski and his family that were truly speculative, and stuck to the facts with a few added links to the chain.

Thanks Rob.

Mike