Jack the Ripper and Black Magic: Victorian Conspiracy Theories, Secret Societies and

[Sally]

Fisherman -

I referred to Crossmere only in response to a question from another poster. I'm not remotely interested in your Crossmere/Hutchinson comparison; and I seriously doubt whether anybody else (apart from you, apparently) is either.

We've been through all of this before - I see little value in going over it all again. Unless you have new evidence, of course?

[Fisherman]

Fisherman -

I referred to Crossmere only in response to a question from another poster. I'm not remotely interested in your Crossmere/Hutchinson comparison; and I seriously doubt whether anybody else (apart from you, apparently) is either.

We've been through all of this before - I see little value in going over it all again. Unless you have new evidence, of course?

Whether you are interested in material relating to the murders and the ones involved in the case or not is your very own affair, Sally. Since you post out here, however, I thought that this was so.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

Whether you are interested in material relating to the murders and the ones involved in the case or not is your very own affair, Sally. Since you post out here, however, I thought that this was so.

The best,
Fisherman

So it is. And of course I have never intimated that I am not interested in 'material relating to the murders and the ones involved in the case' as I think you imply.

But, in case there is any misunderstanding here, let me be quite plain: I have no interest in engaging with you (or anybody else) in a silly, disingenuous suspect comparison 'debate'. I don't waste my time with nonsense.

Really, don't you have better things to do than attempt to initiate yet another (yawn...) acrimonious suspect debacle?

[Hunter]

I know, Jon.

But the police had him down as "Lawende", and not so surprisingly, that turned out to be his real name. Since "Keyler" appeared on the police report, we should go with that too, rather than a press report. Calling the Keylers the "Gallaghers" makes as much sense as calling Lawende "Lewin"

Both McWilliam and Swanson misspelled Lawende's name in their subsequent reports. In fact, Swanson misspelled it two different ways in two different reports.

[Fisherman]

So it is. And of course I have never intimated that I am not interested in 'material relating to the murders and the ones involved in the case' as I think you imply.

But, in case there is any misunderstanding here, let me be quite plain: I have no interest in engaging with you (or anybody else) in a silly, disingenuous suspect comparison 'debate'. I don't waste my time with nonsense.

Really, don't you have better things to do than attempt to initiate yet another (yawn...) acrimonious suspect debacle?

So then, Sally, I take it you can explain to me how it can be, ehrm, "nonsense" to compare suspects? My understanding is that this is what Ripperology has done for 125 years.

But of course, you may find it silly that Lechmere should be the best practical bid for the killers role. Not that it changes things - they are what they are.

I don´t expect any deabte on that matter, by the way - it´s well beyond debating.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

It is speculated that Hutchinson was alone with one of the victims.
we KNOW, however, that Lechmere WAS alone with one of the victims.

It is speculated that Hutchinson used a false name.
We KNOW, however, that Lechmere did this.

It is speculated that Hutchinson lied to the police.
We KNOW, however, that the inquest recordings clearly suggest that Lechmere did precisely this.

It is speculated that Hutchinson will have walked the streets where the victims were found.
We KNOW, however, that Lechmere had both professional and social reasons to do so.

It is speculated that Hutchinson was an honest, reliable witness.
We KNOW, however, that Charles Lechmere aka Cross was an honest, reliable witness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

It is speculated that Hutchinson was an honest, reliable witness.
We KNOW, however, that Charles Lechmere aka Cross was an honest, reliable witness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

We? Schizophrenic, Tom?

Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Honest and reliable?
He gave a name to the police that is at variance with that which he called himself in every single other known recorded instance when he was dealing with anyone else - and we have around 100 plus instances to choose from in his well recorded life.
there is also a glaring discrepancy between what PC Mizen claimed Charles Lechmere told him and what Charles Lechmere claims he told PC Mizen.
But let's pass by these as they quite innocent explanations are available to us for these things.

[Tom_Wescott]

Honest and reliable?
He gave a name to the police that is at variance with that which he called himself in every single other known recorded instance when he was dealing with anyone else - and we have around 100 plus instances to choose from in his well recorded life.
there is also a glaring discrepancy between what PC Mizen claimed Charles Lechmere told him and what Charles Lechmere claims he told PC Mizen.
But let's pass by these as they quite innocent explanations are available to us for these things.

That's quite an admission, Lech. I'm shocked as well as impressed.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[auspirograph]

Metropolitan Police Crime Index

Thanks, Stewart. But who did the suggesting? The police or someone to the police? And do we assume this had to do with Kelly specifically?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

It is not known with certainty who the information for the Metropolitan Police Crime Index, 'Whitechapel murder Suggested complicity of Irish Party' - that Stewart has kindly made available - came from. I drew some conclusions with the Special Commission active during the Whitechapel murders but it is more involved than that because the nature of that information would have naturally transferred to Special Branch to investigate. The outcome of those inquiries is also not known beyond what Lindsay Clutterbuck has summed up as it:

"…does enable an outline to be constructed of an intriguing story involving an extreme Irish nationalist who is suspected of being 'Jack the Ripper', an alleged plot to assassinate the Secretary for Ireland, Balfour, and the activities of a private detective agency."

Regarding Kelly specifically, it is not now an assumption that this information is linked and instrumental to the time of her death as I have made the proof available in my book. There is also no reason to suspect, as speculated, that she was in any way associated with any of this. I'd also like to emphasize that as the Crime Index entries can be conclusively dated to her murder, it does not ensure it refers to her murder alone but reflects, in my view, on the series as a whole event.

This is evidence of a parallel and internal police investigation whose surviving primary sources supplement and contradict the 1910 touted 'facts' of Anderson and the generally known Scotland Yard reports on which we speculate. Macnaghten however, to some extent, supports these inquiries with his internal Balfour report on Jack the Ripper.

Is it really so hard to consider the now plausible possibility, based on this evidence, and to strongly assert that a serial killer could not be born of the then current Irish/Anglo troubles?

I thought you had read the book, if not, it occurs in chapter 7.

[Lechmere]

Just in case you missed it, I suggested that the entry in the Metropolitan Police’s Index for General Crime was in direct response to the allegation made on 14th December 1888 that Mr Broderick had committed ‘Contempt of Court’ in a speech in which he jokingly referred to Jack the Ripper while also discussing the Parnell Commission. That will explain why this file was in the Met’s ‘General’ section and not in the Special Branch ledgers.

Given that the Parnell Commission was sitting from September 1888 to November 1889, while some of the Ripper Murders were being committed (depending which you wish to count as Ripper Murders), some will try to make a case that this was not a coincidence. Also the brutality that accompanied the Phoenix Park murders of 1882, will invite in some minds a comparison to the Ripper Murders.

This is not perhaps the same as suggesting that ‘a serial killer could not be born of the then current Irish/Anglo troubles?’
It is one thing to suggest that the killings were part of a Fenian conspiracy to undermine the authority of the British Government in the eyes of the struggling masses. If this were their aim then they failed abjectly. I can’t think of any other instance of terror being waged in such a fashion. It is frankly a ludicrous theory.

The other thing is to suggest the killer could have been a disgruntled and deranged Irishman who acted alone, yet used the ‘troubles’ as some sort of twisted justification for his actions.
I suppose there is a chance of this being the case.
It is similar to a hypothetical twisted justification for a culprit like Kosminsky, who in a similarly deranged fashion may have been seeking vengeance against gentile society for his experiences in Russia.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Spiro,

Of course I have read your book and recall vividly the part about the 'extremist' and private detective agency...but like you said, I took this to mean that he was suspected for the murders as a whole and not just the Kelly murder as some were suggesting. And I thought perhaps the subsequent research that I had missed had identified the author. At the time I first saw this quite a long time ago, I suggested Le Grand as an explanation for the private detective agency. Not surprisingly, this was completely ignored or pushed aside. However, as he was involved with the Parnell commission, in fact headed a detective agency, was an actual Ripper suspect, and was known to Macnaghten, this shouldn't be too hard of a sell.

Lech,

I read your alternative explanation but I'm afraid I don't find it convincing at all, particularly in light of the more direct comments offered by Spiro above to the existence of an 'extremist' suspect.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

all attention

Hello Tom. Well, I, for one did not ignore it.

Wish I knew which Irish extremist was alluded to, though.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

Ah Tom
But what do these suggestions of an 'extremist' suspect actually rely on?

A couple of vague entries on the Special Branch ledger?
"McGrath, William – suspicious Irishman at 57 Bedford Gardens"
"McGrath, William - said to be connected to Whitechapel murders".

Littlechild’s reference to Tumblety?

This reference by Douglas G. Browne in The Rise of Scotland Yard (1956)?
"A third head of the CID, Sir Melville Macnaghten, appears to identify the Ripper with the leader of a plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish Office."
Unsubstantiated and probably based on a misunderstanding of Macnaghten’s memoirs.

As I said earlier – this is how conspiracy theories work on those prone to clutching to them – unconnected and inaccurate snippets are tangled together.
Usually the explanation is more mundane and less exciting – such as the explanation I gave which also explains why the file was under ‘General’.

And Le Grand as the detective agency connected to the Parnell Commission? Le Grand made claims to that effect but are they believable? Do you believe him?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lech. You might be fitting together pieces that don't fit. And yes, Le Grand most likely was employed in the Parnell commission. It's known from other sources he was following around certain MPs at the right time, and the moment he threatened in court to produce documents proving himself, everyone - including the great George Lewis - gave him his way to prevent this from happening.

Not sure where you're getting at with 'conspiracy theories'. What does that mean? I'm certainly not suggesting Le Grand was a Fenian or an extreme nationalist. Are you suggesting these sources that are being referenced have somehow been faked? That's what I would call a conspiracy theory.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott