The Fox and the Flies: The World of Joseph Silver, Racketeer and Psychopath

[lemonjelly]

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/charles+van+onselen/the+fox+and+the+flies/4124519/

Hello all,

is anyone aware of this book, or read it & able to give a review/recommendation?
It isn't one I've heard of before. I assume it is a non-fiction book?

All feedback gratefully recieved!

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, it's a great book but not a great solution. If you read it as the biography of an unscrupulous criminal then you'll get much out of it. It's immaculately researched. Van Orselen was the first Ripper author I'm aware of to read the Jabez Spencer Balfour Ripper essay I quoted from in Casebook Examiner.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Grave Maurice]

We did discuss this book at great length, Lem, but I guess that was before the last crash in early 2008. As I recall, most people admired Van Orselen's detailed description of the criminal underworld in Europe, the States, South Africa, and Argentina in the late 19th century. But many believed that his linking of Lis/Silver with JtR was added to the book as an afterthought and that no evidence was supplied to support the theory.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Grave,

I think the biggest drawback to the theory is that it couldn't even be proved that Lis/Silver was in London during the murders. That's a pretty rough foundation to build upon.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Exactly; a pretty good read, an excellent and smart marketing effort - and not much substance to go hand in hand with the latter.

The best,
Fisherman

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening lemonjelly,

Yes it is non-fiction, and the author proposes a suspect, Joseph Lis (Silver). I have a completely contrary view to everyone else because I think he is a good suspect, for the reasons given in the book. And no, I don't think the Ripper part was tossed in as an afterthought, nor as a marketing tool. The author didn't set out to find Jack the Ripper, in fact, he is not a Ripperologist. But along the way in his research it dawned on him that this man made a good candidate, so he followed it as far as he could. The fact that he couldn't prove (not for lack of trying) with 100% certainty that Lis was in London at the time doesn't phase me in the least. I am satisfied with the indirect connections made that Lis was, in fact there then.

Yes I recommend it.

Roy

[lemonjelly]

My thanks Tom, Maurice, fisherman & Roy.

If interested, it is being included in waterstones current 3 for 2 offer, along with other interesting titles including:

Stewart Evans - Executioner, the chronicles of James Berry
Niel Storey - a grim almanac of JTR's London
Karyo Magellan - By Ears & eyes

I may be making a purchase or 2

[Tom_Wescott]

Roy,

I was surprised at your post, considering the hard time you've given me over Le Grand, an admittedly similar, though indisputably more likely suspect than Lis.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

Hello Tom,

I didn't give you a hard time over Le Grand. I was specifically questioning one and only one aspect, your suggestion that Le Grand was hired by the WVC at some point in September, weighing the sources you supplied in your article and other works such as Evans & Rumbelow, who had a farily substantial section on both the WVC and Le Grand, and Neil's Ripperology article on the vigilance committees. It's up to interpetation, because I think we could agree there is no source pointing to whether he was hired in September or October.

I wouldn't want our online convesation to turn into giving each other a hard time. You are one of the first folks I met here on Casebook and have alway been helpful to me, and others.

As for Lis (Joe Silver) and comparing him to Le Grand head on, well that could be done, I suppose. But again, as you, Mike Covell, and others have correctly pointed out, it's not proven Lis was in Whitechapel. Fido called him an unlikely suspect on the podcast or something to that effect.

But as to his whereabouts in 1888, an indirect connection is made through his daughter, the time of his and Goldberg's arrival and their arrest in New York and that Lis returned to London. The mystery is part of the allure of this scenario for me. Here was a young man without a country, rootless, with no apparent strong family connection, unless Lis the dealer on Plumbers Row is one. The fact that Lis was in no census rolls, no registry, that he cannot be pinned down there only makes it more intriguing.

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy,

I would imagine Evans and Rumbelow were the source for Monty's essay on that point. I suppose you said nothing either positive or negative about Le Grand. So what makes you suspect Lis? Unless its proved he was in London at the time, or it's shown that he was suspected, I see no point in pursuing him. Van Orselen argues that he was a violent pimp, so should be considered suspicious, but since we have a violent pimp who was contemporaneously suspected and in the area at the time, there's little reason to look at Lis seriously.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Roy Corduroy writes:

"I don't think the Ripper part was tossed in as an afterthought, nor as a marketing tool"

U-huh. You take it for granted that the publishers could not care less about the Ripper "connection" ...? Okay.

The best,
Fisherman

[Roy Corduroy]

No Fish I don't think the author exploring the ripper angle was a marketing tool. And since I think he's a good suspect, it doesn't matter to me if it was a marketing tool. A good book is in the readers enjoyment and satisfaction, and I am that.

Tom, I don't confine to only police suspects. But on that note, Joe Lis, age 20, and possibly based on Plumbers Rows, is very similar in age and ethnicity to Aaron Kosminski, who lived nearby. Yalford St. It's right there. Maybe police were on to something, but pegged the wrong man.

Joe Lis was a psychopath, a rootless young criminal who came down with syphilis at this time, and had nothing to lose by commiting these murders. Not that psychopaths care anyway, they can't. He had a mother complex, too, according to the author. And he left England. It makes for a very good suspect scenario in my book. Is it proven? No.

I really didnt' intend to go mano a mano with Le Grand, that was the last thing on my mind. I was just happy to discuss Van Onselen a little.

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Roy, I guess I'm just confused why you found Lis a good suspect in the first place, because the book was one big 'what if' after another. But I guess you somewhat answered it. I wouldn't expect you to go 'mano a mano' with Le Grand, I was and am confused how between two suspects - both psychopaths and pimps - you would be more interested in the one with virtually no suspicion against him. But to each his own. As a side note, it's looking more likely that Le Grand authored the 'From Hell' letter. But I digress.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Roy Corduroy writes:

"No Fish I don't think the author exploring the ripper angle was a marketing tool."

Nor do I, Roy. But I feel pretty certain that the publishers did not mind the angle at all, and I seem to remember they did nothing at all to play it down. THAT was what I meant when I spoke of smart marketing.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Grave Maurice]

We might be drifting from the point of the thread. LJ asked if the book is worth reading. No question, it is. As to the three books on offer from Waterstones, I haven't read SPE's Executioner but, if it's like his other works, it will be brilliant. I've read the remaining two, and they're excellent, so I don't see how you can go wrong. Enjoy.