In need of accurate information please...

[Austin]

Good Morning;

First off, I want to say that I have throughly enjoyed and appreciated this site. Thanks to all who have created, verified and posted information to the site and the boards.

I am, by no small means at all, a Ripperologist (if that is the correct term), and have only become interested in the last three weeks or so due to an off hand remark I made to my wife (who is a bit of one) about a possible reason for the authorities not having caught JtR. Well, impossible really. She found the idea entertaining and challenged me to write a fiction novel about it. I know I am in the non-fiction boards, but if I am going to write one ("Gods, not another one!" I hear you cry!), then I want and need it to be based on as much factual information as is possible. This is where everyone's knowledge here comes into play.

Is there a book which has actual and factual distances between the murder scenes, as well as time it takes to travel between, in print anywhere? This would not only be for the five who are identified as the primary victims, but Ms. Tabram as well. While it would be disagreed with, it makes sense from what little I have read (as well as having some education in psychology and sociology) that she may be a beginning in his career of murder. Obviously, his deviances would have begun earlier with lesser offences (by lesser I mean not ending in death), but every murderer has to have a first kill to "hone his trade" as it were.

I want to thank everyone in advance for their assistance and patience with one being less than a neophyte!

Thanks!

Austin

PS I don't find Sugden a dry read as some have opined, though he does seem to ramble a bit at times...

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Austin,

The first works that came to mind regarding distances and such are a couple of essays written by Gavin Bromley and published in Ripperologist magazine. One of them regards the murder of Liz Stride in Berner Street and I believe is called 'PC Smith's Beat', and the other is about the various policemen around Mitre Square (Catherine Eddowes) and is called 'City Beat'. Unfortunately, I'm at work right now and cannot tell you the issues they appear in, but you could contact the magazine through their website, which I believe is www.ripperologist.biz. The issues in question are electronic journals, so they're cheap to purchase and quick to get. For more basic distances between the various murder cites, I'm at a loss at the moment to think of a book discussing this, although I'm sure a few do, probably Tully and Begg.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bob Hinton]

The quick answer to your question is no there isn't for the very reason that no one can positively identify where the bodies were found, not with the accuracy that some theorists claim.

Using the largest scale map I could obtain and taking the generally accepted positions of the bodies I found there was a 15% difference in the distances between bodies.

I have posted on this in the 'Pentagram' thread.

[Austin]

The quick answer to your question is no there isn't for the very reason that no one can positively identify where the bodies were found, not with the accuracy that some theorists claim.

Using the largest scale map I could obtain and taking the generally accepted positions of the bodies I found there was a 15% difference in the distances between bodies.

I have posted on this in the 'Pentagram' thread.

Ok, then this may be a rather "noobish" question, but how then can people say for certain (in books that is) "this is where 'so and so' was found murdered" and even go so far as to outline the body position? I am by no means doubting you, just doubting "them". Considering all the erroneous information, all the uncertain information and the unavailability of forensic science at the time, it is a wonder they could even conclude any murders were even committed...except for the bodies.

For my part, just the distance and time it takes to walk between two sites will do, basic math will tell me the rest, but knowing there is a 15% difference will help me in not making TOO great an error.

Thank you Tom for the publication name, I will be most certainly be going there.

I should have started this research 20 years ago...I don't know how you all do it!

[Tom_Wescott]

Austin and Bob,

I'm not sure what Bob means when he says 'no one can positively identify where the bodies were found, not with the accuracy that some theorists claim.' A little expansion on this would be appreciated as this is news to me. Also, Austin, we have a real-life Ripper tour guide on here by the name of Philip Hutchinson (aka George Hutchinson) who would likely have insight into the distance between crime scenes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi Austin,

I agree with Tom that there's no big mystery about the locations of the C5 bodies.

Armed with the 1894 OS Map [available on Casebook] because some streets no longer exist, Google Earth and the "Path" tool, you should be able to plot the distances with a fair degree of accuracy.

Regards,

Simon

[Septic Blue]

Is there a book which has actual and factual distances between the murder scenes, as well as time it takes to travel between, in print anywhere? This would not only be for the five who are identified as the primary victims, but Ms. Tabram as well.

Are you in need of the distances from the Tabram murder-site, to each of the other five murder-sites; from the Nichols murder-site, to each of the other five murder-sites; etc: i.e. a total of fifteen distances? If yes, then for what purpose?

If you are content with straight-line distances, they are easily attainable. But, if you are in need of distances, measured along networks of 1888-extant thoroughfares, then you've got some work to do.

Here are the distances from the murder-site mean-center, to each of the six murder-sites under consideration; measured along networks of 1888-extant routes that are assumed to have been the most practical. Perhaps this will be of some assistance.

Martha Tabram (7 August 1888) First-Floor Stairway Landing of George Yard Buildings, George Yard, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 4' 18.45" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 0.60" North

Mary Ann 'Polly' Nichols (31 August 1888) Gateway to Brown's Stable Yard, Buck's Row, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 37.53" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 12.14" North

Annie Chapman (8 September 1888) Back Yard of 29 Hanbury Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 4' 21.40" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 13.67" North

Elizabeth Stride (30 September 1888) Gateway to Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street, Parish of St. George in the East, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 56.14" West
Latitude: 51° 30' 49.44" North

Catherine Eddowes (30 September 1888) Southeast Corner of Mitre Square, Parish of St. James ('Duke's Place'), Aldgate Ward, City of London
Longitude: 0° 4' 41.06" West
Latitude: 51° 30' 49.35" North

Mary Jane Kelly (9 November 1888) Interior of 13 Miller's Court, Dorset Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 4' 30.47" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 7.17" North

---------

Murder-Site Mean-Center
Southwest Corner of the Intersection of Wentworth Street and Osborn Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 4' 14.18" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 2.06" North

---------


Figure 13: Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Network Distance Measurement) (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

White: Randomly Selected Networks of Practical Routes, from the Murder-Site Mean-Center, to Each of the Six Murder-Sites Under Consideration.

Martha Tabram: 135.58 Yards
- South Side of Wentworth Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 98.65 Yards
- West Side of George Yard, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 31.27 Yards
- Main Corridor of George Yard Buildings, George Yard, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 5.66 Yards

Polly Nichols: 1,067.38 Yards
- West Side of Osborn Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 149.69 Yards
- North Side of Whitechapel High Street / Whitechapel Road, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 613.57 Yards
- East Side of Baker's Row, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 64.72 Yards
- South Side of White's Row / Buck's Row, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 239.40 Yards

Annie Chapman: 460.73 Yards
- West Side of Brick Lane, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 395.82 Yards
- North Side of Hanbury Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 48.91 Yards
- Corridor of 29 Hanbury Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 16.00 Yards

Elizabeth Stride: 676.47 Yards
- West Side of Osborn Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 149.69 Yards
- West Side of Church Lane, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 156.85 Yards
- South Side of Commercial Road, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel / Parish of St. George in the East: 243.44 Yards
- West Side of Berner Street, Parish of St. George in the East: 122.43 Yards
- Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street, Parish of St. George in the East: 4.06 Yards

Catherine Eddowes: 978.27 Yards
- South Side of Wentworth Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 359.45 Yards
- East Side of Goulston Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 61.21 Yards
- South Side of New Goulston Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 85.28 Yards
- East Side of Middlesex Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 37.38 Yards
- North Side of Ellison Street, Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate: 64.22 Yards
- North Side of New Street, Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate: 63.96 Yards
- West Side of Gravel Lane, Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate: 109.58 Yards
- South Side of Houndsditch, Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate: 37.03 Yards
- East Side of Duke Street, Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate / Parish of St. James: 67.38 Yards
- St. James's Place / St. James's Passage, Parish of St. James: 63.81 Yards
- Mitre Square, Parish of St. James: 28.97 Yards

Mary Jane Kelly: 497.20 Yards
- South Side of Wentworth Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel: 98.65 Yards
- South Side / Center / North Side of Wentworth Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel / Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 23.87 Yards
- West Side of George Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 118.01 Yards
- North Side of Flower & Dean Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 106.08 Yards
- East Side / Center of Commercial Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 102.49 Yards
- North Side of Dorset Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 38.13 Yards
- Miller's Court, Dorset Street, Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields: 9.97 Yards

Mean Network Distance (i.e. 'Average Network Distance'): 635.94 Yards

[Austin]

Are you in need of the distances from the Tabram murder-site, to each of the other five murder-sites; from the Nichols murder-site, to each of the other five murder-sites; etc: i.e. a total of fifteen distances? If yes, then for what purpose?.

Actually, from any of the murder sites, would suffice as math will do the rest. The reason I was asking is because it will become needed information for the book as I stated originally. You have given me FAR more information than I could have hoped for, thank you!

I wasn't aware Philip was a Ripper Guide...I shall keep that in mind in hopes he may allow me to pick his brain a bit if needed.

You folks are awesome, thank you!

[belinda]

It's late and I'm tired but if you look at the Map the murder sites almost form a circle with Martha Tabram in the middle

[Septic Blue]

... if you look at the Map the murder sites almost form a circle with Martha Tabram in the middle

Absolute Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Straight-Line Distance) (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Martha Tabram: 102.67 Yards
Polly Nichols: 843.50 Yards
Annie Chapman: 420.38 Yards
Elizabeth Stride: 570.85 Yards
Catherine Eddowes: 710.69 Yards
Mary Jane Kelly: 384.13 Yards

Mean Absolute Deviation (i.e. 'Average Deviation'): 505.37 Yards


Absolute Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Circular Perspective) (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Martha Tabram: 102.67 Yards
Mary Jane Kelly: 384.13 Yards
Annie Chapman: 420.38 Yards
Mean Absolute Deviation (i.e. 'Average Deviation') (Green): 505.37 Yards
Elizabeth Stride: 570.85 Yards
Catherine Eddowes: 710.69 Yards
Polly Nichols: 843.50 Yards


Cumulative Probability Distribution (Greatest Deviation: Polly Nichols) (Circular) (Click to Enlarge in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Red: Greatest Deviation (Polly Nichols) 0.00 - 1.38 Standard Deviations

- Radius: 843.50 Yards
- Area: 0.72 Square-Miles
- Expectation of Distribution Accumulation: 77.30%*

* Given a perception of late November 1888 that this series of murders would continue ad infinitum; the expectation should have been that 77.30% would occur within the specified circular area, i.e. within 1.38 Standard Deviations of the murder-site Mean-Center (green dot).

This can be loosely interpreted to mean that in late November 1888, the perceived probability of the impending subsequent murder occurring within this circular area, should have been 77.30%.

[belinda]

That is very interesting. Polly is farthest, Annie, Liz and Kate are at roughly the same distance and Mary is closest


Things that make you go Hmmm

[Gman992]

Actually, it looks like an arrow with Catherine at the tip...

[belinda]

It's still interesting the way they sort of radiate in a circle around Martha Tabram.Probably doesn't mean a thing but I never realised how close the murder sites of Mary and Martha were.Which could be a point to ponder or not

[Austin]

That is very interesting. Polly is farthest, Annie, Liz and Kate are at roughly the same distance and Mary is closest


Things that make you go Hmmm

While it may or may not mean anything, it DOES bring up a point I can address in my writing. I am sure the possibilities have been thought of by the powers that be at some point in the past, but wouldn't it be interresting if a new point of fact could be brought to light because of it?

I see now what has drawn ya'll to this...it does pique the desire to solve a puzzle....