Jack the Ripper A-Z

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Maria! Anglo Saxon words dont have names with ****$ in them but there are loads of Ramsbottoms and Shufflebottoms out there that nearly always end up being pronounced and even spelt differently until the name becomes barely recognisable!
Norma

[mariab]

It's kind of a “shitsy“ situation (as in Domashitsy). And at least I'm gratefuly I wasn't born in this town of Domashitsy, current Belarus. (But then I might have been a better figure skater, as many of them come from such obscure places, and end up getting the Russian citizenship and competing in the Olympics.)
Na, how was that for a digression away from this thread's subject?

[Natalie Severn]

I am sorry that I made the above remark --I was just being playful and hadnt realised there was a bit of a spat going on,
Norma

[mariab]

Wow, and I was using “William“ Wess, following the lead of Lynn Cates. (This kinda shutters my world.)

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Not to appear pedantic, Tom, but Wess's first name was Woolf, not William.

Wolf.

[Natalie Severn]

This thread has developed a bit of a whiff

[mariab]

Incidentally the (rocket) science totally fits with how Diemshitz and his family chose to spell it.

[Tom_Wescott]

There is no "correct English" way of rendering this name, because it's not a "correct English name" in the first place.

Uh, how about the way Diemshitz and HIS family chose to spell it? Is that not good enough? Otherwise, let's just make Macnaghten MacNaughton, or McNaghten, since that's how most writers spell it anyway. This isn't rocket science, folks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

To Sam Flynn:
"ДЫМШЫЦ", Domashitsy, very interesting. I can read some of the cyrillic alphabet, but not all. I know that “doma“ (approximatively transliterated, and pronounced “duoma“ in Russian) means “home“. No idea if it writes likes this “ДЫМШ“ in Russian, and no idea what “shitsy“ means in Russian. (I know people who speak and write Russian, but not available here.) But after your explanation it totally sounds like a Russian (vs. a Jewish) word/town.
And by the by, “Diem“- is not the correct transliteration for Russian, it should have been “Dim-“ (“shitz“). “Diem-shitz“ shows a Germanic/Yiddish provenance.

[Sam Flynn]

Diemshitz is called Diemschutz for the same reason books refer to William Wess as 'West'...because the Times screwed up. There is no other argument to be made.

Yes, there is - namely, that English orthography cannot reproduce the original name except via approximate transliterations, of which there could be more than one. There is no "correct English" way of rendering this name, because it's not a "correct English name" in the first place.

It's only my second day back, and I've had enough of this already.

Bye!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Maria

Is the original name really Russian, or Jewish? Because it certainly doesn't sound Russian...

The name D*(*)ms*(*)*(¨)t* originated in the village of Domashitsy, on the outskirts of Pinsk (Belarus).

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
Diemshitz is called Diemschutz for the same reason books refer to William Wess as 'West'...because the Times screwed up. There is no other argument to be made. Every other document referred to, to say nothing of newspaper coverage, refer to these men as Diemshitz and Wess. End of story. Unless we want to start calling Charles Cross 'George Cross' again because that's how the Times liked his name.
Seems like some British Ripperologists worship The Times as God. I happen to know many British non-Ripperologists who happen to do so too.
(I'm afraid that, were I a resident in the UK, I would rather be reading The Guardian (esp. on Wednesdays, when the job ads come out). Now shoot me to death – the “conservatives“ among you.)
I'll soon start to see this Maria Birchwood (butch?) lady in my sleep, if people keep reminiscing about her in front of me all the time.

[Tom_Wescott]

At least the "Diemschutz" version, with or without umlaut, spares poor old LD from the dubious posterity (posteriority?) of having the "$hitz" for all time.

This was Adam Went's response...that it's okay for us to knowingly perpetuate a factual error to make his name less funny. Went also suggested books should not include Mrs. Mortimer's first name (Fanny) for the same reason. From a historical perspective, this seems a very strange stance to me.

Diemshitz is called Diemschutz for the same reason books refer to William Wess as 'West'...because the Times screwed up. There is no other argument to be made. Every other document referred to, to say nothing of newspaper coverage, refer to these men as Diemshitz and Wess. End of story. Unless we want to start calling Charles Cross 'George Cross' again because that's how the Times liked his name.

I hear that my real name in Ripperology should have been Maria Birkwood. It seems like I've disappointed many people for not having been the reincarnation of her.

Maria Birchwood, a scholar and a gentleman. Well, not so much a scholar, really. And she only looked like a gentleman...didn't behave so much like one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The Grave Maurice wrote:
I also note that John has changed the spelling of his last name, no doubt to be part of the Diemschutz-Diemshitz vowel movement.
And I (as a newbie) thought that Johnr's was a peculiar surname...
It's apparently all about “posteriority“ on poor Diemster (Dumpster?), as Sam Flynn said.

[Monty]

It would have been the City of Londons clerk (whose name I forget and Im in Manchester so cannot check) who would have made the error Abyss.

However it seems to have gotten there.

Monty