Some thoughts on Patricia Cornwell

[Ms Ermengarde]

Hello everyone!

As I'm a new face on this forum, please bear with my short introduction. I first read about Jack the Ripper when I was some 10 years old. It was a Reader's Digest book on mysteries of the world and there was a short article on Jack. Very interesting it was, although after having read Sudgen, Begg et al. , I must say it was, ahem...a bit prudish, a bit opinionated and clearly trying to make the whole affair into a royal scandal. It stated however that the Ripper files had been classified and therefore were out of reach for the public and that once they were opened for the media, there certainly would be the true identity of the culprit. I thought then that "wow, I'll be an adult (barely) then, it'll certainly be exciting to know".

Well, years went by and then came out Patricia Cornwell's Jack the Ripper: Case closed. I bought it straight away and read it immediately. For some reason I can't remember much of the following day's studies... I'm not particulary convinced that Sickert was the Ripper, it's possible, yes, the DNA in the letters was an interesting find but still, as stated by Cornwell's opponents, there are still thousands of men fitting to the same mitocondrial category.

However, she did name several killings of children outside London and she does point out that the Ripper did threaten to kill children, girls and boys. Now, the exact number of letters written by the Ripper is continuously under discussion, and one can dismiss Cornwell's notion of underage victims simply by dismissing the letters as hoaxes.

So this is my problem: how possible is it that the Ripper did indeed have victims outside his normal type of prey? Many of the victims Cornwell mentions had their throats cut and they were mutilated in the abdomen. Even when I take into consideration the amount of population on the British Isles at the time, it seems quite farfetched that there would have been two homicidal criminals with the capability to prolonged sadistic mutilation of a helpless victim AND the skill to vanish afterwards without a trace.

Please share your thoughts with me!

[Stephen Thomas]

Welcome Ms. Ermengarde

There's an English phrase to describe someone who doesn't know on earth they're talking about. It's 'they don't know their arse from their elbow'.

Like our millionaire crime fiction paperback writer

My best wishes to you, and may I say your English is impeccable

[perrymason]

Hi Ms Ermengard,

I think that is an interesting aspect of the period that these crimes were taking place in, some murders occurred simultaneously with those of the alleged serial killer Jack the Ripper. There is a case of a local boy found near Bradford at that time, cut in half, stuffed in a barrel with his shoes stuck in his chest. There are many stories from around the UK of women and children being savagely attacked during these years. And of a young man committing suicide on the day of the burial of the last Ripper victim, having been of concern to his family all that Fall. Are we seeing what could be described as an outbreak of violent crime, particularly with very vicious overtones,..or was this just late Victorian England, rife with class issues, poverty and hardship and anger.

I think one thing that can be gleaned from that is that this Jack the Ripper fellow was not the only man capable of atrocities working at that time....and that with that knowledge, we cannot assume that all kills that bear similar traits were committed by one man alone.

Welcome to the boards, and Happy New Year.

[Sam Flynn]

There is a case of a local boy found near Bradford at that time, cut in half, stuffed in a barrel with his shoes stuck in his chest...

... and 'e 'ad to pay mill-owner for permission to come to work...

[Ms Ermengarde]

Thank you, Stephen, I mostly share your opinion of Ms. Cornwell. She seems to give no thought whatsoever to the possibility of Sickert not being guilty. Having studied art history for years, although I'm no Sickert expert, I wonder where she gets her rather gloomy opinion of his character - especially since it contradicts with his colleagues, friends and family. It is true that sociopaths can fake a sunny and warm disposition, but where is her evidence that he was indeed faking? And thanks for the language compliment. I tried not to sleep during english lessons at school...

Sam, do you mean that the incidents that Cornwell reports are not true?

perrymason, it's true that violence begets violence, but still. Cutting somebody to pieces is not precisely the kind of thing that any next man on the street could do. I do agree with Ms. Cornwell that shooting someone is a rather non-personal way of killing, but cutting somebody up with a knife or some other tool is highly personal, beginning with the amount of sheer physical strength it takes.

It would be interesting to know, since I assume that all the cases Cornwell reports went cold after a while, how much has there been similar mutilation cases, children or adults, in England that time and how large a procentage of them were solved. I freely admit that I only have superficial knowledge of the working class history and living conditions in the 1880's, but I can't recall that the period would have been described as unusually bloody or violent. If I may compare, I believe that for example the slums of Cairo or Kolkata are certainly as bad or worse today as the slums of London were in the 1880's. Yet we do not get to read about serial "slashers" in these areas. Or is it just that we are so used to reading about "30 people dead in bombattack/15 died in fire/60 trampled to death" and so on.

[perrymason]

Hi again Ermengarde,

I agree that to kill in that style is not the run of the mill variety of murderer, thats why its relevant when considering who else aside from "Jack" was capable of acts like that and was committing them at the same period in time.

I think Pat Cornwell may have inadvertantly offered a reasonable suggestion for the killer in her book, (which I liked only for the atmosphere she tried to instill in it, kind of a carnival like ghetto....fitting in a city where the Elephant Man is being studied in London Hospital and Jeykl and Hyde is selling out at the Lyceum),....that being his keeping of a "bolt-hole" for his changes and storing his transgressions. I personally think thats credible, and it could answer some key questions if correct.

Best regards Ms E

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, do you mean that the incidents that Cornwell reports are not true?

Not at all, Ms E. Just referring to the Monty Python "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch. Sorry

[ghoulstonstreet]

Dear Ms. Ermengarde,
You will get a clear and horrifying picture of how things were for the very poor in London's East End by reading a few of the classic works on the Murders. There are also reams of photos showing hordes of children with filthy faces and clothed in gray rags, huddled on the streets. My feeling is that "stress" as we know it is nothing compared to everyday life for these people. One account I read mentions that there were doss houses (one nighters where women such as the Ripper's victims would try to get a bed) where people actually paid money to lean against a rope to try to get some sleep. Yes, and we have fits when the air conditioning goes out. I think it is incredible that some of our ancestors actually made it through such times.
I'm a brand new member living in the States. Happy New Year to all of you!

[Ms Ermengarde]

I have read through most of the recommended non-fiction books on the Ripper and quite a lot of general european history of the victorian period. What I meant was that I am not familiar with the psychology of the poor in the 1800īs. Poverty does not much change over the centuries, I'm afraid, but I believe that their idea of their own situation, the reasons for it and the expectations for their future were quite different from those of people of the earlier centuries. After all, the 1800's was the century of rising new ideologies, the waning of the intellectual and spiritual overpower of the church and the rapidly evolving scientific theories and discoveries. Literacy was higher than ever before. The 1800's saw many great self-made men rise to power, regardless of their origins. England was, of course, known as the fortress of the strict class society, but even there one could, if one was smart, resourseful and lucky, rise from the sewers.

My point is that in the earlier centuries and generally in societies where you cannot aspire beyond some obscure caste that you are born to or which you are placed to without your own consent, one becomes bitter, since there is no way out. In the 1800's there was, at least theoretically, a way up and out. Hope, to be precise. And yes, I am aware that a drug or alcohol addict that is unemployed, halfliterate at best, homeless and a woman was in a very bad situation indeed. And it certainly wasn't much better if one was male, either. I'm struggling with this train of thought since I see the problems of said characteristics in my work every day. Hopelessness indeed does create extreme measures, as we finns so well know considering what has happened here under the last 15 months, twice.

I'm inclined to think that Jack may have killed a child at least once. The cases Cornwell mentions would fit his m.o. The children were mutilated, in a way that matches or closely resembles Jack's, no one saw the killer and no one was arrested. There is no mention of the children being sexually abused (which would be relatively easy to spot), which would also match with Jack. Having studied a little the most common violent causes for underage children to die, I make the conclusion that even today, when there's plenty of firearms, children are usually strangled of smothered to death when they are killed by an outsider. There are several cases of slashed-up children killed by their own parent, but then the cutting-up has been done in order to better conceal or get rid of the body. In Cornwell's cases the mutilation (and/or the cutting of the throat) seems to have been the primary cause of death.

The possibility of a copycat is substantial, although I feel it's unlikely. However I don't believe that some dozen or more parents or strangers could have mutilated a bunch of kids in hope to make it look like it was Jack. And why try in the first place, since Jack's canonical victims were all grown up women? There's a threat in the letters that Jack would kill men too, but he never did and at least I have never heard of a male being mutilated and killed Jack-style. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Sincerely, Em

[skypilot]

I'm new here so be patient. never heard of Jack killing children. has anyone supporting that theory done any family history on the young victims? I ask because that could help the case. many think Jack had a bad and unloving childhood. if so, did he kill rich and privileged children out of jealousy or kids from a similar "unloved" background as his-to save them the pain he lives with? either way, could you write me back? I 've posted several comments on this board and have received no replies. I'm beginning to doubt my "existence here in cyberspace"...al

[String]

I'm inclined to think that Jack may have killed a child at least once......


Sincerely, Em

I would certainly agree the chances of Jack killing a child would be at least pretty good. In those days with little social services etc and lots of 'street' children it would be relatively easy to get away with it too.
Another suggestion that people have mentioned before is that Jack probably started with animals before progressing to humans. I would certainly subscribe to this theory.
I wonder does anyone know of a serial killer moving from animals then children then to adults?

[Ms Ermengarde]

Cornwell does not give much detailed background information of the murdered children, but I would assume none of them came from the upper classes as there was no great furore about their fate. If they were, say, offspring of a really wealthy person or maybe even a noble's, the media would have had a field day with the Ripper's supposed newest victim - a true innocent. They've probably been from the lower middleclass or better-off-poor family as they all were clearly identified and some were even searched for with a bounty for the finder.

The thought of Jack starting with animals is intriguing, but not necessarily the truth. There is a multiple of evidence of sociopaths who deeply care and value their pets or animals in general. Then again, there are also numerous cases on the contrary.

I think he started with grownout women and may have proceeded to children. Hurting and killing a child is a kind of taboo, an unspeakably horrible thing to do and the gravity of the deed is forced into us by culture, religion and biology. Therefore, as can be deduced from the way Jack got nastier with his mutilation with every new murder, to attack a child would have taken the thing to a completely new level.

[perrymason]

Hi Skypilot,

It can feel like that at times, but rest assured that people are reading the material but may have their own interpretation to advance first before addressing yours.

Im not the expert, but to my knowledge no serious suspect had the killing of children as part of his background, unless its Deeming, who as an aside is the face of the death mask that for years was in the Black Museum as "Jack's" Death Mask....although he couldnt have been as evidence has shown since.

There was a poster here a year or so ago who was claiming a forthcoming book on the cases and a PC Harvey as being involved, and there was a PC Harvey involved in the investigation of a childs murder earlier in the decade that he alluded to. Nothing but really tenuous suggestions I think.

I would say that the one thing that Ive learned from participating here, and its probably not a popular thing to say with many members, is that its almost useless to try and profile the man they sought using modern analysis of modern serial killers who were caught or gave themselves up,... we dont even know for sure whom he killed, let alone what spark in him ignited that "spree", and comparing his crimes and that period in time to modern stats is like trying to figure out Genghis Khan's behaviour and motivations by using lessons learned by the behaviours of Adolf Hitler.

Keep up the inquisitive approach...cheers.