the victims werent prostitutes

[packers stem]

Ah, so how much was the arrears by the second week of October?

One week's rent possibly ?
Barnett had been working but like with most things Millers court ..... shrouded in bull so who knows .
We only have McCarthy's word for anything which is , let's say ...... unfortunate
She may NEVER have paid any rent for all we know. .... and I suspect that is probably close to the truth

[MrBarnett]

As for Bowyers sighting on Wednesday it was Kelly with a 'toff' in the court
Do you not think he may have mentioned this straight away to McCarthy ? If he had a chance of getting his cash , there it was .
It was Friday morning when Kelly was discovered so that argument doesn't stand up I'm afraid.

Really? A toff? In the court?

He'd have had to have been a pretty swell toff to have paid off Mary's (and Barnett's) 29 bob debt.

[Abby Normal]

any possibility that Mary was paying off her debt with sex?

do we know how moral McCarthy was?
how scrupulous a businessman he was?Any evidence he kept records of debt and payments from his tenants?


It may be one explanation why he would allow one of his tenants to get so far in arrears. just thinking out loud here.

[MrBarnett]

Evict her in the second week of October I expect ....
Many had to find money daily
As she was in McCarthy's shop the day before it might have crossed his mind to ask her about the rent then and as her door was a short stride from his back door why not knock himself

Ah, so how much was the arrears by the second week of October?

[Wickerman]

When a person so young dies suddenly, and especially someone who had no regular means of income. The family arrives not only to attend the funeral, but (more importantly for McCarthy) to settle any outstanding debts.

Personally, I do not believe any landlord would permit arrears to get so high.
I am more inclined to think Kelly may have had a small debt, but McCarthy exaggerated the debt in expectation of her family opening their wallets.
This is why there was no fuss about her buying a half-penny candle from McCarthy on Wednesday, she either had no debt, or only a small one.
She was still going out drinking with Harvey, so not overly concerned about any significant debt load at that time.

I think the "29/- in arrears" is just McCarthy taking advantage of the moment.
The family didn't show, so his ploy failed.

[packers stem]

McCarthy may well have asked after his rent when she bought the ha'penny candle on Wednesday, assuming that he was the one who waited on her, instead of Bowyer. (Bowyer did,in fact, say that Wednesday was the last day he saw Mary alive, albeit in Miller's Court.) Many workers (perhaps even the majority) who were paid weekly got their money on Saturday, either at noon or early afternoon, so it wouldn't be implausible that McCarthy expected to get some money from Mary on Saturday, and sent his man around mid-morning to remind her to see Barnett promptly when he got paid (assuming that he was paid on Saturday). As for sending Bowyer instead of going himself, one has employees so that one needn't do everything oneself.

As for Bowyers sighting on Wednesday it was Kelly with a 'toff' in the court
Do you not think he may have mentioned this straight away to McCarthy ? If he had a chance of getting his cash , there it was .
It was Friday morning when Kelly was discovered so that argument doesn't stand up I'm afraid.

[Ginger]

Did McCarthy ever try and make a few quid by showing the room to people for cash? He had the world’s most authentic crime scene display there.

East London Observer for November 24th, 1888, says (in what is apparently a gossip column, "Out and About"):

The following speaks well - should I say ill? - for the morbid amusement which some folk find in viewing the site of a murder: and yet a caterer must find a good demand for such an exhibition, for I hear on good authority that Mr. McCarthy, the owner of the house in which Mary Kelly was killed, was offered £25 from a showman for the use of the room for a month! Another enterprising Barnum wished to buy, or even hire, the wretched furniture on which the dreadful crime was committed. To McCarthy's credit, both offers were rejected.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_observer/elo881124.html

[Ginger]

Evict her in the second week of October I expect ....
Many had to find money daily
As she was in McCarthy's shop the day before it might have crossed his mind to ask her about the rent then and as her door was a short stride from his back door why not knock himself

McCarthy may well have asked after his rent when she bought the ha'penny candle on Wednesday, assuming that he was the one who waited on her, instead of Bowyer. (Bowyer did,in fact, say that Wednesday was the last day he saw Mary alive, albeit in Miller's Court.) Many workers (perhaps even the majority) who were paid weekly got their money on Saturday, either at noon or early afternoon, so it wouldn't be implausible that McCarthy expected to get some money from Mary on Saturday, and sent his man around mid-morning to remind her to see Barnett promptly when he got paid (assuming that he was paid on Saturday). As for sending Bowyer instead of going himself, one has employees so that one needn't do everything oneself.

[packers stem]

These were McCarthy's exact words in his statement:

I let the room about ten months ago to the deceased and a man named Joe, who I believed to be her husband. It was a furnished room, at 4s/6 per week. I sent for the rent because for some time past they had not kept their payments regularly. I have since heard, the man Joe was not her husband and that he had recently left her.

With Barnett gone what's a landlord to do, evict MJK and write the 27s off to bad luck? (I don't have a lot of faith in the veracity of the final sentence.)

Evict her in the second week of October I expect ....
Many had to find money daily
As she was in McCarthy's shop the day before it might have crossed his mind to ask her about the rent then and as her door was a short stride from his back door why not knock himself

[MrBarnett]

If McCarthy had evicted Kelly, he would have immediately kissed goodbye to 27 bob. Was it a coincidence that he sent Bowyer to collect the morning after Kelly had had a visit from Joe Barnett? Wasn't it said by McCarthy that the couple had gradually got into arrears? I'd have thought McCarthy's best chance of recouping the arrears was if Barnett got back into regular employment and rejoined Kelly in Millers Court.

These were McCarthy's exact words in his statement:

I let the room about ten months ago to the deceased and a man named Joe, who I believed to be her husband. It was a furnished room, at 4s/6 per week. I sent for the rent because for some time past they had not kept their payments regularly. I have since heard, the man Joe was not her husband and that he had recently left her.

With Barnett gone what's a landlord to do, evict MJK and write the 27s off to bad luck? (I don't have a lot of faith in the veracity of the final sentence.)

[Ginger]

If McCarthy had evicted Kelly, he would have immediately kissed goodbye to 27 bob. Was it a coincidence that he sent Bowyer to collect the morning after Kelly had had a visit from Joe Barnett?

There's an excellent point.

[MrBarnett]

If McCarthy had evicted Kelly, he would have immediately kissed goodbye to 27 bob. Was it a coincidence that he sent Bowyer to collect the morning after Kelly had had a visit from Joe Barnett? Wasn't it said by McCarthy that the couple had gradually got into arrears? I'd have thought McCarthy's best chance of recouping the arrears was if Barnett got back into regular employment and rejoined Kelly in Millers Court.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Best wishes to Herlock's Daddy!

I doubt McCarthy would have mentioned the amount of MJK's rent arrears - true, false or massaged - if it put him in a bad light, so he presumably saw some advantage in doing so, or at least no disadvantage.

Whether it was to come across as a kindly landlord, who let a woman get so far behind because her circumstances had recently taken a turn for the worse; or whether he hoped a relative or other associate of the deceased might help to cover his losses; or a bit of both, I don't suppose we'll ever know.

But one thing struck me - if he was letting Kelly pay him in other ways, by doing odd jobs or favours for him, then that should have brought the arrears down a few pence for each 'favour', or she'd never have cleared the debt that way and it would have carried on increasing, week after week. So if there had been some sort of 'arrangement' in place, I'd say McCarthy was maximising the arrears to indicate otherwise.

Love,

Caz
X

Thanks Caz

[Simon Wood]

Hi Richard,

What terror on the streets? Nothing had happened for the past 40 days.

"Like the other women there she had a dread of Jack the Ripper, and only the day before her death she remarked to Mrs McCarthy, 'That dreadful man! Ain't he a caution! I wonder who he'll have next'" [Echo, 14th November 1888].

This is little more than hyperbole.

Regards,

Simon

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would say McCarthy was being lenient with her , because of the terror on the streets,I would suggest, should the killer had been apprehended, she would have been evicted.
Mrs M , allegedly remarked to Mary the day before, it was concerning about The Ripper.
Maybe he was also lenient because of his wife's pity
Regards Richard.