the victims werent prostitutes

[caz]

any possibility that Mary was paying off her debt with sex?

do we know how moral McCarthy was?
how scrupulous a businessman he was?Any evidence he kept records of debt and payments from his tenants?

It may be one explanation why he would allow one of his tenants to get so far in arrears. just thinking out loud here.

But Abby, if Mary was paying off her debt with sex [or by doing odd chores for the McCarthys for example], she wouldn't have got so far in arrears, would she? If she truly was as badly in arrears [ie debt] as McCarthy appears to have claimed, then she wasn't 'paying off' that debt [ie the arrears] with cash or with anything else. No point in paying in other ways if the debt only keeps going up, never down.

Of course it's possible that McCarthy only claimed she was in debt to him by that much to stop tongues wagging that she may have been living there rent free in return for sexual services.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

It may be one explanation why [McCarthy] would allow one of his tenants to get so far in arrears.

I'm pretty sure I read McCarthy saying that more than one of his tenants were in arrears. Darned if I can remember where, though.

[Simon Wood]

Hi MrBarnett,

Just because I don't believe any of this arrant nonsense is no reason for you to do likewise.

Enjoy.

Regards,

Simon

[Abby Normal]

But Abby, if Mary was paying off her debt with sex [or by doing odd chores for the McCarthys for example], she wouldn't have got so far in arrears, would she? If she truly was as badly in arrears [ie debt] as McCarthy appears to have claimed, then she wasn't 'paying off' that debt [ie the arrears] with cash or with anything else. No point in paying in other ways if the debt only keeps going up, never down.

Of course it's possible that McCarthy only claimed she was in debt to him by that much to stop tongues wagging that she may have been living there rent free in return for sexual services.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz

thanks-I see what your saying here and basically agree. On the other hand he hadn't kicked her out yet for getting so far behind.


again just thinking out loud, I don't really think that was what was going on because there is no evidence for it-just wanted to get others take on the possibility.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm pretty sure I read McCarthy saying that more than one of his tenants were in arrears. Darned if I can remember where, though.

Hi Sam,

I went looking for a quote on the above, and the Echo printed on Nov 10th;

"For these rooms rents are supposed to be paid daily, but of course they will sometimes get a good deal in arrear. This was the case with one of the tenants, who had occupied a ground-floor room on the right hand side of the court for about twelve months. Her name was understood to be Mary Jane Kelly - a young woman of 24, tall, slim, fair, of fresh complexion, and attractive appearance - and she was believed to be the daughter of a man occupying a responsible position in some ironworks in the neighbourhood of Carmarthen."

Further into that days edition I found this, don't remember seeing this particular snippet before:

"Did anyone know her? A rough-looking fellow, engaged in cutting his victuals on the rude table, queried on this, "Did anyone not know her?2 - a remark which hugely tickled his companions. Poor Mary Jane Kelly was a figure, it appears, in street brawls, sudden and quick in quarrel, and - for a woman - handy with her fists. The rough fellows laughed and grieved in turns over her, although the terrible cynicism beforehand mentioned always entered in his conversation. An elderly man who wore a coat and waistcoat, but no shirt beneath, averred in pessimistic tones it was better for Mary Jane Kelly to have been done to death. "Wot was her life?" he muttered, spreading out his thin and not too clean hands to the fire. "Starvation three days a week, and then, when she got money, drink for the other three days. I knowed her. I guv her the money for her doss three weeks ago cos she hadn't none. Yes, matey, and that at two in the mornin'," he said, turning to our reporter whose intent bearing may possibly have suggested incredulity. "Mary Jane was a good soul." This testimony was freely offered. "She would spend her money lavishly when she had any, and when she hadn't any, why -" The sentence was left unfinished".

I think that is interesting on a few levels....1, that it seems Mary had asked someone she knew for doss at 2am before...maybe her last doss payment?,.... 2, that she did not have a reputation for working more than just a few days a week, and 3, that she was not unfamiliar with fighting...the last point perhaps illustrated by the appearance of defensive wounds on Mary.

[Robert]

Very interesting, Michael. Perhaps McCarthy did pressure her to pay at least sixpence a week.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Sam,

I went looking for a quote on the above, and the Echo printed on Nov 10th;

"For these rooms rents are supposed to be paid daily, but of course they will sometimes get a good deal in arrear. This was the case with one of the tenants, who had occupied a ground-floor room on the right hand side of the court for about twelve months. Her name was understood to be Mary Jane Kelly - a young woman of 24, tall, slim, fair, of fresh complexion, and attractive appearance - and she was believed to be the daughter of a man occupying a responsible position in some ironworks in the neighbourhood of Carmarthen."

Further into that days edition I found this, don't remember seeing this particular snippet before:

"Did anyone know her? A rough-looking fellow, engaged in cutting his victuals on the rude table, queried on this, "Did anyone not know her?2 - a remark which hugely tickled his companions. Poor Mary Jane Kelly was a figure, it appears, in street brawls, sudden and quick in quarrel, and - for a woman - handy with her fists. The rough fellows laughed and grieved in turns over her, although the terrible cynicism beforehand mentioned always entered in his conversation. An elderly man who wore a coat and waistcoat, but no shirt beneath, averred in pessimistic tones it was better for Mary Jane Kelly to have been done to death. "Wot was her life?" he muttered, spreading out his thin and not too clean hands to the fire. "Starvation three days a week, and then, when she got money, drink for the other three days. I knowed her. I guv her the money for her doss three weeks ago cos she hadn't none. Yes, matey, and that at two in the mornin'," he said, turning to our reporter whose intent bearing may possibly have suggested incredulity. "Mary Jane was a good soul." This testimony was freely offered. "She would spend her money lavishly when she had any, and when she hadn't any, why -" The sentence was left unfinished".

I think that is interesting on a few levels....1, that it seems Mary had asked someone she knew for doss at 2am before...maybe her last doss payment?,.... 2, that she did not have a reputation for working more than just a few days a week, and 3, that she was not unfamiliar with fighting...the last point perhaps illustrated by the appearance of defensive wounds on Mary.

Interestingly, the Echo reporter states the rent arrears was 14s.

[MrBarnett]

The Echo reporter also tells us:

"Prior to lodging in Miller's-court, the murdered woman lived at 35, Dorset-street - a common lodging-house, frequented at the time by Annie Chapman, one of the East-end victims - while her place of abode previous to that was curiously enough in Flower and Dean-street."

The previous day the Echo were saying:

"Singular to relate, the murdered woman, Annie Chapman, was a friend of this very Mary Jane Kelly."

Doss-house gossip or journalistic embellishment?

[Michael W Richards]

The Echo reporter also tells us:

"Prior to lodging in Miller's-court, the murdered woman lived at 35, Dorset-street - a common lodging-house, frequented at the time by Annie Chapman, one of the East-end victims - while her place of abode previous to that was curiously enough in Flower and Dean-street."

The previous day the Echo were saying:

"Singular to relate, the murdered woman, Annie Chapman, was a friend of this very Mary Jane Kelly."

Doss-house gossip or journalistic embellishment?

Its always been a bone of contention about these women possibly knowing each other, we know in at least 1 case its likely true. Dorset street was the drain that the neighborhood washed down into...its likely all the victims could have been found on or in that street at some point, even in the 12 months Kelly lived there.

My interpretation of the known data tells me that Marys behaviour was not knew, and that her pattern of life had likely been fairly consistent since she left the bordello. Earn enough to go on a bender, and when it was over, she would reluctantly earn again. She had run arrears in previous rental spaces, and her lack of funds during that period had nothing to do with any fear of walking the streets, there had been no rippings yet.

Marie Jeanette had been installed in a bordello where monied gentlemen would be her company. She had nice dresses. She went to Paris in the employ of some gentlemen, as a paid consort. She likely drank fine wines, ate well, and learned the ropes of the well heeled. Having to then work the streets while based in a hovel, servicing smelly dockers and ruffians out and about in the middle of the night probably didnt appeal to her.

Anyone wonder what transpired there? How did she fall from the higher end escort to the street whore..and why? She apparently was still attractive. She did retrieve some nice dresses from Mrs Buki, perhaps she could have appealed to someone she met at the bordello to "sponsor' her.

I have a theory about that, and it may tie into her murder. Lets remember that Paris at that time was meeting place for terrorists, politicians, under cover espionage agents, plotters and scammers. Interesting that Anderson suddenly is in Paris when he is recalled to London. Why? Switzerland not "restful" enough? Anderson,..a key player in the Central Intelligence community thriving in London, a man who knew double agents and snitches, bombers and aristocrats.

I think whomever Mary Kelly was she knew someone she shouldnt have, or something she shouldnt have. I think the Paris trip scared her...enough to leave the protective environment of the bordello and wallow in the ghetto. A small room in a tiny court..maybe she thought she could get lost in the vast numbers on Millers Street alone. Maybe Kate, and her usage of 98% of Marys full name and address in her last 2 aliases, was intended to leave a trail in case something happened to her. Kate being the Irish connection in these murders. I think Kate knew some bad dude Fenian types. Maybe "Mary" did as well.

Since they were both killed during a period where Fenian subversive activity was being investigated at the Parliamentary level, a hearing where at least 1 double agent was paid 5,000L for his testimony..(any idea of the equivalent value of that today), and the streets of the east end were crawling with Irish self rule factions, socialist anarchists, and snithches and spies....maybe the climate dictated their being silenced.

[Roy Corduroy]

But Michael, for starters, there's no corroboration that Mary, or if you wish, Marie Jeanette Kelly ever set foot on the European continent.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

An excellent point, Roy.

And by the way, Michael, Anderson didn't go anywhere near Switzerland.

[Ginger]

Dorset street was the drain that the neighborhood washed down into...

There's a magnificent image! Would you mind if I use that at some point?

[jerryd]

Its always been a bone of contention about these women possibly knowing each other, we know in at least 1 case its likely true. Dorset street was the drain that the neighborhood washed down into...its likely all the victims could have been found on or in that street at some point, even in the 12 months Kelly lived there.

My interpretation of the known data tells me that Marys behaviour was not knew, and that her pattern of life had likely been fairly consistent since she left the bordello. Earn enough to go on a bender, and when it was over, she would reluctantly earn again. She had run arrears in previous rental spaces, and her lack of funds during that period had nothing to do with any fear of walking the streets, there had been no rippings yet.

Marie Jeanette had been installed in a bordello where monied gentlemen would be her company. She had nice dresses. She went to Paris in the employ of some gentlemen, as a paid consort. She likely drank fine wines, ate well, and learned the ropes of the well heeled. Having to then work the streets while based in a hovel, servicing smelly dockers and ruffians out and about in the middle of the night probably didnt appeal to her.

Anyone wonder what transpired there? How did she fall from the higher end escort to the street whore..and why? She apparently was still attractive. She did retrieve some nice dresses from Mrs Buki, perhaps she could have appealed to someone she met at the bordello to "sponsor' her.

I have a theory about that, and it may tie into her murder. Lets remember that Paris at that time was meeting place for terrorists, politicians, under cover espionage agents, plotters and scammers. Interesting that Anderson suddenly is in Paris when he is recalled to London. Why? Switzerland not "restful" enough? Anderson,..a key player in the Central Intelligence community thriving in London, a man who knew double agents and snitches, bombers and aristocrats.

I think whomever Mary Kelly was she knew someone she shouldnt have, or something she shouldnt have. I think the Paris trip scared her...enough to leave the protective environment of the bordello and wallow in the ghetto. A small room in a tiny court..maybe she thought she could get lost in the vast numbers on Millers Street alone. Maybe Kate, and her usage of 98% of Marys full name and address in her last 2 aliases, was intended to leave a trail in case something happened to her. Kate being the Irish connection in these murders. I think Kate knew some bad dude Fenian types. Maybe "Mary" did as well.

Since they were both killed during a period where Fenian subversive activity was being investigated at the Parliamentary level, a hearing where at least 1 double agent was paid 5,000L for his testimony..(any idea of the equivalent value of that today), and the streets of the east end were crawling with Irish self rule factions, socialist anarchists, and snithches and spies....maybe the climate dictated their being silenced.

Hi Michael,

Regarding Paris and Dynamite and a young cork girl

https://i.imgur.com/sTHAx7Y.jpg

Regarding Mitre Square:

The Flameless Explosives Company was formed in January 1888. The company produced all kinds of explosives including dynamite. Edward Horner was on the Board of Directors. Horner and Sons Chemical Warehouse was located in Mitre Square.

The following is what the prospectus says they were in the business of doing:

Object of the company, to carry on the trade or business of manufacturers of explosives (whether securite, safety cartridges, nitro-glycerine, dynamite, gun cotton, detonators, torpedoes, cartridges, fuses, blasting powder or other matters or things) and to purchase, sell, or deal in and dispose of explosives whether manufactured by the company or not, and also to purchase, manufacture, prepare, use, sell or deal in and dispose of all materials, article and things required for or incidental to the manufacture, preparation, adaptation, use or working of explosives, or the packing, storing, firing, carrying or the disposition thereof.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jerry,

Interesting article.

Have you got a date etc?

Regards,

Simon

[jerryd]

Then this. Notice the name of the landlady. Also, I found a bankruptcy for a furniture maker named Harry Harris that was living at 32 Great Prescott Street. Harry Harris, furniture maker, of Castle Alley was the witness in Mitre Square with Joseph Lawende. Lawende lived near Great Prescott Street at one time. Harry Harris lived over a 7 foot hoarding away from the body of Alice McKenzie.

..on the Saturday evening, while Cunningham was detained, I went to 32, Great Prescott Street, and saw the landlady, Miss Kelly, and in consequence of what she told me I spoke to Cunningham, and took a note next night of what he said; this is it—I said to Cunningham, "We have made inquiries at 30, Great Prescott Street, and find when you arrived there you had with you a large brown box and bag; the landlady states that you afterwards took the brown box away, and you told her you had borrowed it from a friend; now if you like to refer me to your friend we will make inquiry if you think it will be for your benefit"

This clip is from Old Bailey testimony regarding Burton and Cunningham the dynamiters of Mitre Square fame.