Ripper Confidential: Fanny Mortimer

[drstrange169]

I’ve started this thread to deal exclusively with Tom’s chapter on Fanny Mortimer. I noted on another thread about his book that there were a couple of mistakes, turns out there are a few actually, but two are quite important.

I also noted that they weren’t earth shattering, but on reflection, there is a major problem that arises, not only was Tom wrong but I and probably a lot of other people need to reconsider what might have happened in Berner Street.

The first error is just a careless one, Tom claims Diemshitz,” had noticed the time at a bakers’s clock on Commercial Road before he turned into Berner Street.”

Presumably, Tom simply looked at the Daily Telegraph report that claimed,

“I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. (Daily Telegraph, 2 Oct)

In fact, it was Harris ‘s tobacconist’s shop.

“I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.” (Illustrated Police News /Morning Advertiser/Evening Standard/Morning Post and various regional newspapers)

No big deal, just a silly mistake.

The next two errors, when corrected put into question the witnesses and exactly what Mrs Stride was up to on that fateful night.

In his book, Tom places PC Smith’s sighting of a couple,

“on the pavement across the street from the club, where a large Board School took up half of the lower Berner Street.”

(In fact, The Board School was in the middle of Berner Street not the lower half, but that's not the error I'm interested in.)

He went on to write later,
“...Parcel Man went on his way and Stride wandered into Fairclough Street.”

In fact,

“At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street … “ (The Times, Oct 24)

Then,

“When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road.” (The Times Oct 6)

The two were not near the Board School when Smith saw them, the two did not separate and Mrs Stride did not just simply wander around the corner into Fairclough Street.

If Fanny Mortimer was standing in her doorway after Smith passed by she not only missed Schwartz and the Broad-Shouldered man, she missed Mrs Stride returning to the street as well.

This scenario also raises the notion, if correct, that Mrs Stride was specifically targeting Berner Street, as she was seen leaving it at least twice and returned each time.

[MrBarnett]

Hi DrS,

“At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street … “ (The Times, Oct 24)

This was Baxter's summing up, I believe, not PC Smith's direct testimony. Even coroners, it seems, can be geographically challenged.

Gary

[Michael W Richards]

I’ve started this thread to deal exclusively with Tom’s chapter on Fanny Mortimer. I noted on another thread about his book that there were a couple of mistakes, turns out there are a few actually, but two are quite important.

I also noted that they weren’t earth shattering, but on reflection, there is a major problem that arises, not only was Tom wrong but I and probably a lot of other people need to reconsider what might have happened in Berner Street.

The first error is just a careless one, Tom claims Diemshitz,” had noticed the time at a bakers’s clock on Commercial Road before he turned into Berner Street.”

Presumably, Tom simply looked at the Daily Telegraph report that claimed,

“I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street. (Daily Telegraph, 2 Oct)

In fact, it was Harris ‘s tobacconist’s shop.

“I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock.” (Illustrated Police News /Morning Advertiser/Evening Standard/Morning Post and various regional newspapers)

No big deal, just a silly mistake.

The next two errors, when corrected put into question the witnesses and exactly what Mrs Stride was up to on that fateful night.

In his book, Tom places PC Smith’s sighting of a couple,

“on the pavement across the street from the club, where a large Board School took up half of the lower Berner Street.”

(In fact, The Board School was in the middle of Berner Street not the lower half, but that's not the error I'm interested in.)

He went on to write later,
“...Parcel Man went on his way and Stride wandered into Fairclough Street.”

In fact,

“At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street … “ (The Times, Oct 24)

Then,

“When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road.” (The Times Oct 6)

The two were not near the Board School when Smith saw them, the two did not separate and Mrs Stride did not just simply wander around the corner into Fairclough Street.

If Fanny Mortimer was standing in her doorway after Smith passed by she not only missed Schwartz and the Broad-Shouldered man, she missed Mrs Stride returning to the street as well.

This scenario also raises the notion, if correct, that Mrs Stride was specifically targeting Berner Street, as she was seen leaving it at least twice and returned each time.

I think the known data suggests that Brown saw the same couple Fanny did, and they were the only couple seen within the vicinity during the important 12:35 to 1am period. If Stride was one of the board school couple, who she described as "young", then why didnt Fanny recognize a mid forties Stride when she saw the body...for one,..and where did the second young couple go if Stride was half of that duo?

It seems pretty clear to me at least, always has in fact, that no-one saw Liz Stride on that street after 12:35 and we have Fannys off and on visits to the door to show us that. She saw no-one. She saw no cart and horse approaching at 1 either, and we know she was at her door from 12:50 to 1am just as she said because Leon Goldstein later confirms her account. She also says, which many seem to misplace or ignore, that she was at her door"almost the whole time" between 12:30 and 1. Off and on is a reasonable concession there.

For me the scene is an empty street at 12:35 save the young couple, and Liz Stride is in the passageway within a minute or 2 of that. Putting her right where she would need to be to have Issac Kozebrodksi, Edward Spooner and Hoschberg be correct about what time they were summoned to the dead woman, by Louis. Around 12:45. Which would mean.....drumroll...that its possible she was cut just after Louis had already arrived at the gates around 12:45...the same time Brown sees the young couple, and the same time that Israel claims an altercation involving shouting was happening.

People need to take a position here to have any hope of finding a real answer, I suggest using Fanny Mortimer, the statements by the club members, and accepting that Brown saw the young couple seen by Fanny is a good start.

Statements that are incredibly self serving by Louis and Morris, and one that is almost certainly fabricated by Israel to give an offsite gentile protagonist his introduction must be viewed as tainted...the first 2 had livelihoods at stake, the last, was a friend of Woolf Wess.

One last querie....if Issac K told the truth when interviewed that same night, that he was sent out alone by Louis for help, then why does no club staffer mention that fact? Louis says he went with Issacs, (something people have erroneously assumed was young Issac K), and Eagle went out in the other direction. Why does no-one mention that trip for help, alone, by Issac, if its the truth?

I believe its because that would put all of them at the scene well before 1, and Louis and Eagle and Lave had already made statements to the contrary. The one with the most to lose if any guilt was perceived.

This murder would likely be the easiest one to put to bed if only people didnt dramatize what it actually was, by the evidence, a 2 second attack without any attempt, and therefore exhibited desire, for any further mischief.

[drstrange169]

Hello Gary,

>>This was Baxter's summing up, I believe, not PC Smith's direct testimony. Even coroners, it seems, can be geographically challenged.<<

Absolutely, it’s from Baxter’s summation.

The important thing is that it doesn’t directly contradict any of Smith’s reported testimony. So it’s likely to be correct.

The advantage of Baxter’s summation’s, unlike the various witness coverages, which were at the caprice of the reporter, the Coroner actually published them beforehand. He and gave copies to all attending journalists and even sent them to the newspapers.

All in all, his summations are more likely to be accurately reported, than the witness testimonies.

In other words, Smith says he saw the couple on the opposite side and up from the club. Baxter who actually heard Smith’s full testimony and possibly even had a written version of it, gave a far more precise location.

My original point was that Smith says he saw Mrs Stride leave Berner Street with “Parcel Man” rather than abandoning him and wandering down to Fairclough Street as Tom described.

And that significantly changes things.

[drstrange169]

Hello Micheal,

>>I think the known data suggests that Brown saw the same couple Fanny did, and they were the only couple seen within the vicinity during the important 12:35 to 1am period.<<

That is something I would have previously argued against, but given we now know the woman PC Smith saw left the street, it is a possibility that it was another couple, perhaps the one Fanny mentioned or perhaps another one. Whether it was Mrs Stride or not, it is now clear that she was focusing her attention on Berner Street for some reason, providing, of course, it was actually her Smith saw.

[Joshua Rogan]

That is something I would have previously argued against, but given we now know the woman PC Smith saw left the street, it is a possibility that it was another couple, perhaps the one Fanny mentioned or perhaps another one. Whether it was Mrs Stride or not, it is now clear that she was focusing her attention on Berner Street for some reason, providing, of course, it was actually her Smith saw.

Hi Dusty,
I may be missing something, but where do you get Stride leaving via Commercial Road?

[drstrange169]

“When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road.”

(PC Smith The Times Oct 6, 4th last paragraph in post #1)

[Joshua Rogan]

“When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road.”

(PC Smith The Times Oct 6, 4th last paragraph in post #1)

Yes, that tells us where Smith went after sighting the couple, but doesn't say anything about where Stride or her companion went next. Unless you're saying the PC followed them?
Or am I reading it wrong?

[drstrange169]

Put me down as senile and please accept my very red faced apology:-(

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm just relieved it's not me that's going senile :-)

[Wickerman]

....
In his book, Tom places PC Smith’s sighting of a couple,

“on the pavement across the street from the club, where a large Board School took up half of the lower Berner Street.”

(In fact, The Board School was in the middle of Berner Street not the lower half, but that's not the error I'm interested in.)

He went on to write later,
“...Parcel Man went on his way and Stride wandered into Fairclough Street.”

In fact,

“At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street … “ (The Times, Oct 24)

Then,

“When you saw them talking, which way did you go? - Straight up Berner-street into the Commercial-road.” (The Times Oct 6)

The two were not near the Board School when Smith saw them, the two did not separate and Mrs Stride did not just simply wander around the corner into Fairclough Street.

Hi Dr Strange.

I couldn't fail to notice this piece above, but the quote you offer is not actually what was stated by PC Smith.

Tom is correct when he wrote that Smith saw the couple directly across from the club.
In the Times, Oct. 6th, we read:
Coroner: - Was she on the pavement?
Smith - Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

Daily News, Oct. 6th.
"The two stood a few yards up Berner street."
(Smith had just turned the corner from Fairclough Street.)

Morning Advertiser, of the same date:
"I feel certain that she is the deceased. She stood on the pavement, a few yards up Berner-street, on the opposite side to where she was found."

Daily Telegraph, same date:
"She stood on the pavement a few yards from where the body was found, but on the opposite side of the street."

[Wickerman]

Hello Gary,

>>This was Baxter's summing up, I believe, not PC Smith's direct testimony. Even coroners, it seems, can be geographically challenged.<<

Absolutely, it’s from Baxter’s summation.

The important thing is that it doesn’t directly contradict any of Smith’s reported testimony. So it’s likely to be correct.

The advantage of Baxter’s summation’s, unlike the various witness coverages, which were at the caprice of the reporter, the Coroner actually published them beforehand. He and gave copies to all attending journalists and even sent them to the newspapers.

I doubt that this is correct in this case.
Though I am interested in what you say above, that the coroner gave his summations out, and even sent them to the press.

Are you prepared to explain how you are able to determine this?

[MrBarnett]

I imagine you wrote this before DrS issued his gracious apology, but felt that your groundbreaking research needed an audience.

[drstrange169]

>>I doubt that this is correct in this case.
Though I am interested in what you say above, that the coroner gave his summations out, and even sent them to the press.<<

I've been unsuccessfully chasing these printed reports for some years now.

[Wickerman]

>>I doubt that this is correct in this case.
Though I am interested in what you say above, that the coroner gave his summations out, and even sent them to the press.<<

I've been unsuccessfully chasing these printed reports for some years now.

Good find Dusty, thankyou.

The way the article is worded, it seems this is another one of Wynne Baxter's quirks. Not the normal procedure of a Coroner.

Added:
Ok, found the original, Sheffield Evening Telegraph, Oct. 26, 1888.
Interesting.