Ripper Confidential by Tom Wescott (2017)

[Trevor Marriott]

He couldn't have, because they weren't standing there at 12:50am. Per the young woman's own statement to the press. This isn't a tough one. Either Brown saw a completely different woman who looked very much like the woman who would die minutes later and only yards away, or he saw the woman who died minutes later and only yards away. That's our choice.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
One also has to consider the street lighting for these different locations, poor lighting will affect witnesses descriptions and cause problems in identifying who was who

Where were the street lamps situated in relation to where the witnesses were positioned, and were they all working, how far were the witnesses away from the persons they were referring to?

It seems this information was not obtained by the police as part of the investigation. That is why there is now a problem with assessing and evaluating the witness statements

I have mentioned a stated legal case previously which not only refers to the identification of suspects but is also used in determining the accuracy of witness testimony a pneumonic is used ADVOKATE R Turnbull 1976

Amount of time under observation: How long did the witness have the person/incident in view?

Distance: What was the distance between the witness and the person/incident?

Visibility: What was the visibility at the time? Factors include the time of day/night, street lighting, etc.

Obstruction: Were there any obstructions to the view of the witness?

Known or seen before: Did the witness know, or had the witness ever seen, the person before? If so where and when?

Any reason to remember: Did the witness have any special reason for remembering the person/incident? Was there something specific that made the person/incident memorable?

Time-lapse: How long has elapsed since the witness saw the person/incident?

Error discrepancy: Are there any errors or material discrepancies between descriptions in the first and subsequent accounts of the witness?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He couldn't have, because they weren't standing there at 12:50am. Per the young woman's own statement to the press. This isn't a tough one. Either Brown saw a completely different woman who looked very much like the woman who would die minutes later and only yards away, or he saw the woman who died minutes later and only yards away. That's our choice.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

So, Fanny Mortimer can be trusted to have supplied the correct time that Smith passed by (give or take a minute or two) but having spoken to a couple later in the morning, she got both their times and location wrong.

A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

You claimed that Mortimer was a reliable witness because her sighting of Goldstein was confirmed. So why not in this case? What is the issue with there being another couple, that are not the couple in the Echo report?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Tom,

IMHO Smith was making an educated estimate on times based on his experience with his beat. The police were required to know the time where as Mortimer, Diemshitz, the Club were all using estimates based on clocks that could be +/- ten minutes.

I have to add that I am with Jon regarding Packer. I think Packer was un-necessarily maligned regarding his story.

Cheers, George

packer is about as unreliable a witness as one can find in the whole case. his story changed which ever way the wind was blowing that day. even the police at the time didnt beleive him.

[Abby Normal]

He couldn't have, because they weren't standing there at 12:50am. Per the young woman's own statement to the press. This isn't a tough one. Either Brown saw a completely different woman who looked very much like the woman who would die minutes later and only yards away, or he saw the woman who died minutes later and only yards away. That's our choice.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

i dont think brown saw stride. no flower, mans wearing long overcoat and not a peaked cap.

[GBinOz]

Yes, of course PC Smith was guessing at both the time and the parcel size. It's not like he kept copious notes of every person he saw and at what minute he saw them. And why do you keep bringing up Packer? You might be the only one left who believes a word he said about the rain-defying, grape-eating Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

IMHO Smith was making an educated estimate on times based on his experience with his beat. The police were required to know the time where as Mortimer, Diemshitz, the Club were all using estimates based on clocks that could be +/- ten minutes.

I have to add that I am with Jon regarding Packer. I think Packer was un-necessarily maligned regarding his story.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

According to the report, the talking had already commenced by the time she is turned around and thrown down. The order of events is stop, talk, attempt to pull into street, turn around, throw down.

That's funny, not a good enough argument, but is a little bit funny.

Some do consider why.

They don't seem to have come up with anything.

Others will ask themselves why Schwartz would have lied, and being unable to answer their own question, will lack the curiosity to consider why Stride might have been there, alone.

Her being alone is the unique argument, she's been with a man all night, now she is supposed to be alone - based on what?

... & then Schwartz walked away ...

Doesn't seem like he was the least bit terrified.

Lets complete the sentence shall we....

...and then he ran as far as the railway arches....

He didn't wait to ask if the two men were together working together - run, and ask questions later.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi George.

Did Brown see the couple who ended up speaking to the press and Fanny Mortimer? That seems to be a crucial question.

He couldn't have, because they weren't standing there at 12:50am. Per the young woman's own statement to the press. This isn't a tough one. Either Brown saw a completely different woman who looked very much like the woman who would die minutes later and only yards away, or he saw the woman who died minutes later and only yards away. That's our choice.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

It wasn't her patch, all witnesses said they had never seen her before, she was brought there. And now everybody think her client just left her without getting his 4d worth?
PC Smith placed him there, and now everybody thinks he left "without any supportive evidence" - who saw him leave?

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I understood you to mean that when Schwartz was walking behind BS Man, that inside the gate of Dutfield's Yard stood Stride with yet another man who Schwartz did not see. Is that it, or did you mean something else?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't have anything to add to this discussion now, but I would like to take this opportunity to say thank you Tom for your two books that I really enjoyed

Thanks, Fogelpa!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

In other words, PC Smith was guessing...

You previously remarked that PC Smith couldn't have known what the time was, he was guessing there also,...

And yet, when it comes to the parcel that Parcel-man was carrying - suddenly PC Smith isn't guessing anymore, in fact you take his 18 inch as verbatim, as if he had measured it. It can't be anything else, it had to be 18 inch because Smith said so.

Put yourself in his place, when asked to guess the size of that woman's handbag who you walked passed yesterday. How likely are you to truly get it right?
PC Smith caught a glimpse of a newspaper parcel at midnight, and you think he got the measurement spot on?

Packer said he wrapped the grapes in a pkg, just like Fish & chips they wrapped in newspaper.
Newspaper was the common means of wrapping all kinds of produce on market stalls or private businesses, even as late as 60 years ago. They didn't have wrapping paper, they couldn't afford it.
Packer didn't hand the man a fistful of grapes, he wrapped them and handed the man the pkg of newspaper, Stride & Parcel-man walked up to the club, and crossed over where PC Smith saw them together about 12:35.

Yes, of course PC Smith was guessing at both the time and the parcel size. It's not like he kept copious notes of every person he saw and at what minute he saw them. And why do you keep bringing up Packer? You might be the only one left who believes a word he said about the rain-defying, grape-eating Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It wasn't her patch, all witnesses said they had never seen her before, she was brought there. And now everybody think her client just left her without getting his 4d worth?

Not everybody, because not everybody thinks she was soliciting.

PC Smith placed him there, and now everybody thinks he left "without any supportive evidence" - who saw him leave?

If he was not a client, his quiet conversation with Stride has to be explained otherwise. Okay, the newspaper parcel was a collection bag for stolen goods. The targets at that time were the costermonger carts in the backyard, which were left unattended. The costermongers sold, amongst other items, sweetmeats. Stride had grabbed what she could but didn't make it out of the yard. Some of the items she had tried to nick were retrieved, but not the cachous packet.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If you read over the statement given to police by Schwartz, or more correctly, Swanson's summary of it, we see it differs slightly in wording. The police version reads:
"...he turned her around, and threw her down..." that line is not in the press version.
I think it suggests Stride was standing with her back to the street, she was facing the yard. This was the clue that she was not by herself.
When BS-man staggered past, he is not intending to talk to the back of her head, he had to turn her around to verbally attack her, he throws her down.

According to the report, the talking had already commenced by the time she is turned around and thrown down. The order of events is stop, talk, attempt to pull into street, turn around, throw down. You seem to want to change this to; stop, turn around, talk, attempt to pull into street, throw down - to fit your Shadow Man theory.

Readers have always assumed she is standing there, in a gateway, at night, in the dark, in a street where she is a stranger - but no-one seems to consider - why?
She was never seen anywhere that night walking by herself, whether you agree which couple in Berner St. included Stride, she at least was with someone. But now all of a sudden she is thought to be by herself, for no apparent reason.

Some do consider why. Others will ask themselves why Schwartz would have lied, and being unable to answer their own question, will lack the curiosity to consider why Stride might have been there, alone. Still others think Schwartz's story is bullshit, so there is nothing to consider.

I am saying BS-man passed the gateway and saw Stride talking to a man in the shadows of the gateway. He took her to be soliciting with him, and accosted her just as Schwartz walked past, but Schwartz's attention was focused on the assault, he failed to notice the man stood in the shadows, he only saw BS-man attack Stride, and was more concerned about his own survival, and fled.

... & then Schwartz walked away ...

Doesn't seem like he was the least bit terrified.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I confess your reasoning is lost on me. If I'm with someone for dinner and a walk then it won't stand to reason that I might be alone before or after? If Stride was picking up clients then we might expect to see her with different men, or approaching and speaking to different men, or - in fact - standing alone. What Schwartz witnessed was her approaching and speaking to a man. So, perhaps, did Smith and others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

If Stride had been picking up clients, where is the money?

James Brown: As I passed them I heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night."

You think these are the words of a woman soliciting?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Lets not forget, a constable's beat is rigidly timed, he can't just wander around at his own pace. He needs to be at specific intersections at given times in order to complete his beat in the required 15 or 30 minutes, or whatever time is assigned to that beat.
To say "he's guessing" gives the wrong impression, he passed that spot at 35 minutes passed the hour, every hour of every night, all week. So, he may be a minute or two out either way at various points on his beat, but Inspectors also do the circuit to check if the beat times are being adhered to, PC Smith knows this. This is why his estimate can be relied on, because of the need for him to be on time on every circuit of his beat.

That's interesting to ponder because I've assumed that given Smith's 25-to-30-minute beat, the time he passed various points would 'wonder around', from night to night, the more so the longer into the night. Is it possible that Smith was supposed to be at the top Berner St at 1am each night, but he was a little 'behind time' that night, so chose not mention it? When the fixed-duty officer went off-shift at 1pm, was the beat officer then handed full responsibility for that area? Should Smith have been where Lamb was at 1am?

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

Did Brown see the couple who ended up speaking to the press and Fanny Mortimer? That seems to be a crucial question.

Hi Andrew,

IMO the most likely conclusion is that Brown saw that couple, not Stride.

Cheers, George