Ripper Confidential by Tom Wescott (2017)

[Sunny Delight]

Packer was never discredited, by that I mean he didn't tell the police something that they discovered to be false.
He was more like dismissed by modern researchers because Swanson said he couldn't be used, but Swanson was talking about a trial witness.

The police always look towards the day when they catch the killer and he is brought to trial. All the witnesses need to have a solid story that cannot be refuted because they will be cross examined. Packer was not a strong witness, he couldn't remember if he saw Stride between 10:45-11:30 or 11:45-12:30.

The police probably knew it was the second time window (11:45-12:30), because Stride had been seen outside the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00 pm, so she couldn't have been buying grapes from Packer at that time. There was nothing wrong with Packer's story about Stride appearing with a man, them buying grapes, then standing in the street. Packer said he wrapped the grapes in a package. So it is more likely the man would be carrying the pkg.
This is what PC Smith said, he saw Stride with a man about 12:30-35, he was carrying a pkg, of or in, newspaper.

I doubt your interpretation stands up to scrutiny. Packer initially told Police he had closed his shop at 12:30am on account of the weather and he had seen no one standing about nor anyone go up the yard. Then a few days later Private Detectives apparantly find a grapes stalk which they trace back to Packer and then Packer changes his story. He had sold grapes to a couple between 11pm and 11:30pm. Then he changed it again to the later time closer to the murder. About 3 weeks later he then has another fantastical story about seeing the same man again at his fruit store and had felt so threatened he had to leave the store in the care of a neighbour.

Packer was discredited because he was an attention seeker.

[Abby Normal]

Packer was never discredited, by that I mean he didn't tell the police something that they discovered to be false.
He was more like dismissed by modern researchers because Swanson said he couldn't be used, but Swanson was talking about a trial witness.

The police always look towards the day when they catch the killer and he is brought to trial. All the witnesses need to have a solid story that cannot be refuted because they will be cross examined. Packer was not a strong witness, he couldn't remember if he saw Stride between 10:45-11:30 or 11:45-12:30.

The police probably knew it was the second time window (11:45-12:30), because Stride had been seen outside the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00 pm, so she couldn't have been buying grapes from Packer at that time. There was nothing wrong with Packer's story about Stride appearing with a man, them buying grapes, then standing in the street. Packer said he wrapped the grapes in a package. So it is more likely the man would be carrying the pkg.
This is what PC Smith said, he saw Stride with a man about 12:30-35, he was carrying a pkg, of or in, newspaper.

Hey wick
do you think that the BGB and packers man could be the same ?

[Wickerman]

I doubt your interpretation stands up to scrutiny. Packer initially told Police he had closed his shop at 12:30am on account of the weather and he had seen no one standing about nor anyone go up the yard.

That is only half of what he said, he continued with:

"...I never saw anything suspicious, or heard any noise"

Which explains the context, no-one suspicious standing about. George and I both questioned what could be suspicious about a couple buying grapes, then standing around listening to singing.
Perhaps you can explain what should be suspicious about that?

Then a few days later Private Detectives apparantly find a grapes stalk which they trace back to Packer and then Packer changes his story.

It's only a change if you think buying grapes is "suspicious".
I have not heard from anyone who does.

He had sold grapes to a couple between 11pm and 11:30pm. Then he changed it again to the later time closer to the murder.

I don't think you're listening
He didn't sell any grapes to the couple between 11:00-11:30 because Stride was up at the Bricklayers Arms at 11:00 pm.
The purchasing was therefore between 12:00-12:30 am.

Packer was discredited because he was an attention seeker.

Thats you talking, we need to know what the police thought.

[Wickerman]

Hey wick
do you think that the BGB and packers man could be the same ?

I think it's possible. There's a discrepancy on age, Lewis & Kennedy both estimated 40'ish, Packer said 25-30, Parcel-man about 28.
Packers man & Parcel-man are the same, in my view, and I think they are the same as Bricklayer's Arms man, who also had 'weird eyes', like BGB.

[Sunny Delight]

That is only half of what he said, he continued with:

"...I never saw anything suspicious, or heard any noise"

Which explains the context, no-one suspicious standing about. George and I both questioned what could be suspicious about a couple buying grapes, then standing around listening to singing.
Perhaps you can explain what should be suspicious about that?




It's only a change if you think buying grapes is "suspicious".
I have not heard from anyone who does.



I don't think you're listening
He didn't sell any grapes to the couple between 11:00-11:30 because Stride was up at the Bricklayers Arms at 11:00 pm.
The purchasing was therefore between 12:00-12:30 am.



Thats you talking, we need to know what the police thought.

Packer was a fantasist and the Police dismissed him as unreliable and contradictory.

- He initially told the Police he had seen no one on the night of the murder. Nor had he seen or heard anything suspicious. He closed the shop at 12:30am.

- Private Detectives who we know had history in deceit and forgery apparantly find a grape stalk in the drain in Dutfields Yard a day later. That stalk cannot be definitively linked to Elizabeth Stride in any way. That is if it existed.

- Dr Phillips stated the victim, "swallowed neither skin or seed of grape within many hours of her death.” He did not give any reason to doubt this despite the length of time between death and autopsy.

- Packer stated the man and woman stood in the rain for quite a while and the rain was heavy. Literally no one else mentioned any heavy rain after 11pm despite what your weather forecast suggests. Sometimes there are localised showers but those in the locality didn't see any.

- Packer subsequently presents himself as an attention seeker via the following.

-On 31st October with interest dwindling in him and his story he again goes to the Press. This time he had seen the man again, the suspected murderer no less. Before he could raise the alarm the man had got on a tram car. The man stared at him in a menacing manner scaring Packer.

- Then with that gaining little tractìon, on 15th November he tells the press about two men who came to his shop, one of whom told him that he elieved the man seen by Packer was a cousin of theirs. He gave an elaborate description of the cousin who had declared his desire to rip up women or words to that effect.

Now of course it is neat and tidy that Stride is with a man at 12:35am as seen by PC Smith. The man is carrying a parcel. Quite a large parcel. And so it fits nicely that this is the man seen by Packer whom he sold grapes to half an hour or so beforehand. Howevef Packer was not seen as reliable by Police. He subsequently portrayed characteristics of an attention seeker. You are fitting Packer into your theory.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't think you're listening
He didn't sell any grapes to the couple between 11:00-11:30 because Stride was up at the Bricklayers Arms at 11:00 pm.
The purchasing was therefore between 12:00-12:30 am.

Best: When the man could not stand the chaffing any longer he and the woman went off like a shot soon after eleven.

Would they not have had time to reach Packer's shop and buy the grapes, well before 11:30?

I wonder how long the couple might have stayed at the pub had they not encountered Best and friends. The Berner St club event finished between 11:30 and 12:00. Perhaps Marshall witnessed the couple while they were killing time?

[Wickerman]

Packer was a fantasist and the Police dismissed him as unreliable and contradictory.

- He initially told the Police he had seen no one on the night of the murder. Nor had he seen or heard anything suspicious. He closed the shop at 12:30am.

I have the reports of what he said. I already explained it in the last post.
There's no point in pretending a man living next to a club where members are coming & going, and singing loudly in the upstairs room, "saw no-one and heard nothing", of course he saw and heard people.
He said "nothing/no-one suspicious", which is quite right - you know it, I invited you to explain why a couple buying grapes is suspicious.
You seem to sidestep the question.

The East London Advertiser, 13 Oct. confirm my point that the police believed Packer & PC Smith saw the same man.

"Both witnesses inclined to the belief that the man's age was not more than 30, in which estimate they were supported by the police-constable, who guessed him to be 28".

The point being made here is the police acknowledge that PC Smith saw the same suspect as Packer, but because Packer was unsure about the time he saw the suspect with Stride, the reliable witness becomes PC Smith, he does recall the time he saw the same man.
This is why we hear no more from Packer, it does not mean he lied about anything, or made something up. Obviously, PC Smith was not in a conspiracy with Packer, that would be ridiculous.
Both men saw the same suspect with the victim, Packer provides information leading up to PC Smith seeing the same couple.
The police can use Smith as a reliable witness, but cannot use Packer.
The police had not dismissed Packer, they only need one witness, but they need the best one, and they have him in PC Smith. The suspects description was re-published as late as 12 Nov. 1888 in The Daily Telegraph. This cannot in any way reflect negative on Packer because his suspect is the same as that of PC Smith.

The stories that appear to be published after 15 Nov. in the press about "An American Cousin", reflects on the fact Packer's story was still taken seriously. Some stranger wanted Packer's opinion on a photograph he brought with him of his cousin.
This isn't Packer's fault, he has become a celebrity due to his story being widely published.

- Private Detectives who we know had history in deceit and forgery apparantly find a grape stalk in the drain in Dutfields Yard a day later. That stalk cannot be definitively linked to Elizabeth Stride in any way. That is if it existed.

They were a pair of con-men, in my view. Likely after some hope of reward money.

- Dr Phillips stated the victim, "swallowed neither skin or seed of grape within many hours of her death.” He did not give any reason to doubt this despite the length of time between death and autopsy.

Always assuming everybody eats both skin & pips, which they don't.
Only the flesh can be expected to be eaten, but after 38 hours there will be no remains of that watery substance.

- Packer stated the man and woman stood in the rain for quite a while and the rain was heavy. Literally no one else mentioned any heavy rain after 11pm despite what your weather forecast suggests.

During the day, does anyone talk about the Sun?
Not saying it was raining does not mean it was not raining. Clearly her clothes being wet testify to the presence of rain, and no-one said it was not raining.
The weather report is posted here on Casebook.
It's not 'my' weather forcast.

https://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

The rest of your post I agreed with.

[Wickerman]

Best: When the man could not stand the chaffing any longer he and the woman went off like a shot soon after eleven.

Would they not have had time to reach Packer's shop and buy the grapes, well before 11:30?

I wonder how long the couple might have stayed at the pub had they not encountered Best and friends. The Berner St club event finished between 11:30 and 12:00. Perhaps Marshall witnessed the couple while they were killing time?

It's not 11:30, what Packer said was 10:45 when the couple came to his shop, and 11:30 was when he thought he closed up his shop.

Then in the press version he said 11:45 they came to buy grapes, and 12:30 he shut up his shop.

It is a bit complicated.

The first piece of evidence is a telegram submitted by Abberline, that mentions no times.

The second, is a report signed by Sgt. White, where Packer says, 'due to the rain, he shut up his shop at 12:30', which was struck out and replaced with 11:30.
Also, we read Packer claimed 'Stride bought grapes about 12:00', but that was struck out and replaced with 11:00.
Who made those changes is not certain.

The third is a summary by the Assistant Commissioner, Bruce, who writes that a young man came to buy grapes at 11:00. The couple came up from Backchurch Lane end, and going towards Commercial Rd. The couple stood opposite his shop for 30 minutes, until 11:30, then he shut up his shop.
Where Brice obtained this story from is also not certain.

The fourth piece of evidence is Packer's story from The Evening News, 4 Oct.
In this we read Stride came to buy grapes at 11:45, they stood around for about half an hour until 12:15, Packer was about to close his shop.
(the reporter writes: "it will be remembered that the night was very wet")

There other press versions, but the above shows how it can look complicated.

My argument is that Stride could not be buying grapes at 10:45 when she was up at the Bricklayer's Arms around 11:00.
The actual time had to be the alternate - 11:45.
He also said he prepared to shut up shop at 12:15, and then he did shut up shop at 12:30, which was the last he saw of the couple.
This is when PC Smith saw the same couple - roughly 12:35.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's not 11:30, what Packer said was 10:45 when the couple came to his shop, and 11:30 was when he thought he closed up his shop.

Then in the press version he said 11:45 they came to buy grapes, and 12:30 he shut up his shop.

So, I get to choose between one of two times given by Packer, a whole hour apart? Don't you think Packer might have been guessing at the time?

It is a bit complicated.

The first piece of evidence is a telegram submitted by Abberline, that mentions no times.

The second, is a report signed by Sgt. White, where Packer says, 'due to the rain, he shut up his shop at 12:30', which was struck out and replaced with 11:30.
Also, we read Packer claimed 'Stride bought grapes about 12:00', but that was struck out and replaced with 11:00.
Who made those changes is not certain.

The third is a summary by the Assistant Commissioner, Bruce, who writes that a young man came to buy grapes at 11:00. The couple came up from Backchurch Lane end, and going towards Commercial Rd. The couple stood opposite his shop for 30 minutes, until 11:30, then he shut up his shop.
Where Brice obtained this story from is also not certain.

The fourth piece of evidence is Packer's story from The Evening News, 4 Oct.
In this we read Stride came to buy grapes at 11:45, they stood around for about half an hour until 12:15, Packer was about to close his shop.
(the reporter writes: "it will be remembered that the night was very wet")

There other press versions, but the above shows how it can look complicated.

The police seem to have supposed that the grapes were sold at around 11pm. Best said the couple left the Bricklayer's Arms shortly after 11, which is close enough.

My argument is that Stride could not be buying grapes at 10:45 when she was up at the Bricklayer's Arms around 11:00.
The actual time had to be the alternate - 11:45.
He also said he prepared to shut up shop at 12:15, and then he did shut up shop at 12:30, which was the last he saw of the couple.
This is when PC Smith saw the same couple - roughly 12:35.

If it had to be the alternate time - 11:45 - why didn't Packer get it right the first time?

I just don't accept that what Smith described was a bag of grapes, made of newspaper. Neither the size nor the description - "a parcel done up in newspaper" - suggest that that is what it was. You suggest that Smith got the size wrong, owing to him walking down the opposite side of the street, which was just too far away for him to accurately estimate the size of the parcel. Whereas Packer selling grapes to the couple, had a very good sense of what the time was. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Suppose that Best was close enough to correct about the time, that Packer did sell grapes to Stride's companion, that they did stand opposite his shop window for about half an hour, and then disappeared from his view. We would have a timeline for the couple, something like this:

11:05 Leave the Bricklayer's Arms (it's raining)
11:10 Arrive at Packer's shop window (maybe it's still raining)
11:42 Move out of Packer's sight

To where?

William Marshall: On Sunday last I saw the body of deceased in the mortuary. I recognize it as that of a woman I saw on Saturday evening about three doors off from where I am living in Berner-street. That was about a quarter to 12.

The times match and are compatible with the time the police seem to have thought the grapes were sold. Packer's and Marshall's descriptions of the man match too, except for the hats. However, some of us know that eyewitnesses do not have photographic memories. Any takers?

[Wickerman]

So, I get to choose between one of two times given by Packer, a whole hour apart? Don't you think Packer might have been guessing at the time?

Packer explains why he picked the time, he said it was due to the public house just closing.
This was Saturday night when the pubs closed at midnight, therefore he closed his shop about 12:30, not 11:30.

The police seem to have supposed that the grapes were sold at around 11pm.

How do you arrive at that, their only witness was Packer, and they decided Packer & Smith saw the same man with Stride.

Best said the couple left the Bricklayer's Arms shortly after 11, which is close enough.

The Bricklayer's Arms is in the opposite direction, Packer said the couple came up from the south, from the direction of Backchurch Lane. The Bricklayers Arms is in Settles St. north of Packer, across Commercial Rd.

If it had to be the alternate time - 11:45 - why didn't Packer get it right the first time?

He did, he told Sgt. White Stride bought some grapes about 12:00, elsewhere he says 11:45, but that is close enough. It certainly wasn't 11:00 pm.

I just don't accept that what Smith described was a bag of grapes, made of newspaper. Neither the size nor the description - "a parcel done up in newspaper" - suggest that that is what it was.

The description is the words of the journalist, not the words of PC Smith. The People described it as "a parcel covered with a newspaper". What else would you expect to see it described as?

You suggest that Smith got the size wrong, owing to him walking down the opposite side of the street, which was just too far away for him to accurately estimate the size of the parcel. Whereas Packer selling grapes to the couple, had a very good sense of what the time was. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Where do you get the, "very good sense what the time was"?
I've explained why he wasn't sure of the time.

I'm not asking you to buy anything, I'm explaining why I see it the way I do, and that in places why the timing fits.
Also, the police seem to agree with part of Packer's story.

[GBinOz]

I'm not asking you to buy anything, I'm explaining why I see it the way I do, and that in places why the timing fits.

Hi Jon,

I also see it the way you do, except for Parcelman's parcel. I don't know how it would have been done in Victorian London, but in Australia a half pound of grapes would have been put in a brown paper bag. If Stride had consumed most of the grapes while standing listening to the music she may have discarded the bag when she removed the last of the grapes. Diemshitz informs us that it was windy that night so the bag could have blown away into a stormwater drain. All speculation of course, but presented as an alternative to Parcelman's parcel holding the grapes. I think that parcel was more likely to have been publications from Arbiter Fraint. JMO.

Cheer, George

[Abby Normal]

So, I get to choose between one of two times given by Packer, a whole hour apart? Don't you think Packer might have been guessing at the time?



The police seem to have supposed that the grapes were sold at around 11pm. Best said the couple left the Bricklayer's Arms shortly after 11, which is close enough.



If it had to be the alternate time - 11:45 - why didn't Packer get it right the first time?

I just don't accept that what Smith described was a bag of grapes, made of newspaper. Neither the size nor the description - "a parcel done up in newspaper" - suggest that that is what it was. You suggest that Smith got the size wrong, owing to him walking down the opposite side of the street, which was just too far away for him to accurately estimate the size of the parcel. Whereas Packer selling grapes to the couple, had a very good sense of what the time was. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Suppose that Best was close enough to correct about the time, that Packer did sell grapes to Stride's companion, that they did stand opposite his shop window for about half an hour, and then disappeared from his view. We would have a timeline for the couple, something like this:

11:05 Leave the Bricklayer's Arms (it's raining)
11:10 Arrive at Packer's shop window (maybe it's still raining)
11:42 Move out of Packer's sight

To where?

William Marshall: On Sunday last I saw the body of deceased in the mortuary. I recognize it as that of a woman I saw on Saturday evening about three doors off from where I am living in Berner-street. That was about a quarter to 12.

The times match and are compatible with the time the police seem to have thought the grapes were sold. Packer's and Marshall's descriptions of the man match too, except for the hats. However, some of us know that eyewitnesses do not have photographic memories. Any takers?

im gonna guess that packer, brown and maybe best saw a different couple, perhaps the same one, and that marshall, schwartz and smith saw stride and the ripper.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Packer explains why he picked the time, he said it was due to the public house just closing.
This was Saturday night when the pubs closed at midnight, therefore he closed his shop about 12:30, not 11:30.

In #653, you quote Sgt White stating that Packer closed shop due to the rain.

How do you arrive at that, their only witness was Packer, and they decided Packer & Smith saw the same man with Stride.

This is from Swanson's report:

Arising out of head b, a, [enquires] Mr. Packer a fruiterer, of Berner St. stated that at 11 p.m. 29th Sept. a young man age 25 to 30 about 5 ft. 7 in. dress long black coat, buttoned up, soft felt hat, (Kind of Yankee hat) rather broad shoulders, rough voice, rather quick speaking, with a woman wearing a geranium like flower, white outside, red inside, & he sold him 1/2 lb of grapes. The man & woman went to the other side of road & stood talking till 11.30 p.m. then they went towards the Club (Socialist) apparently listening to the music. Mr. Packer when asked by the police stated that he did not see any suspicious person about, and it was not until after the publication in the newspapers of the description of man seen by the P.C. that Mr. Packer gave the foregoing particulars to two private enquiry men acting conjointly with the Vigilance Comtee. and the press, who upon searching a drain in the yard found a grape stem which was amongst the other matter swept from the yard after its examination by the police & then calling upon Mr. Packer whom they took to the mortuary where he identified the body of Elizabeth Stride as that of the woman. Packer who is an elderly man, has unfortunately made different statements so that apart from the fact of the hour at which he saw the woman (and she was seen afterwards by the P.C. & Schwartz as stated) any statement he made would be rendered almost valueless as evidence.

So, according to the police, Packer stated that the time of the grape's sale was 11pm. I don't think it can be determined from the above that the police thought Packer and Smith saw the same man. Perhaps you're referring to another source?

The Bricklayer's Arms is in the opposite direction, Packer said the couple came up from the south, from the direction of Backchurch Lane. The Bricklayers Arms is in Settles St. north of Packer, across Commercial Rd.

Yes, but this is a problem for anyone who supposes that Stride and companion were at the Bricklayer's Arms. Had the pair intended to steal from Dutfield's Yard, they may have decided to go a longer route to Packer's shop, to avoid going past the club when it was still packed.

He did, he told Sgt. White Stride bought some grapes about 12:00, elsewhere he says 11:45, but that is close enough. It certainly wasn't 11:00 pm.

So why does the marginal note in White's report say 11pm?

The description is the words of the journalist, not the words of PC Smith. The People described it as "a parcel covered with a newspaper". What else would you expect to see it described as?

Had it contained grapes; A small bag made of newspaper. Possibly one the pair appeared to be eating out of.

Where do you get the, "very good sense what the time was"?
I've explained why he wasn't sure of the time.

Commissioner Bruce's report quotes Packer:

They passed by as though they were going up Com- Road, but- instead of going up they crossed to the other side of the road to the Board School, & were there for about 1/2 an hour till I shd. say 11.30. talking to one another. I then shut up my shutters.

I'm not asking you to buy anything, I'm explaining why I see it the way I do, and that in places why the timing fits.
Also, the police seem to agree with part of Packer's story.

Whereas I think the timing is a better fit with Marshall's testimony. I don't see how Stride and companion could have stood across from Packer's shop between 12 and 12:30, without anyone remembering seeing them there except Packer.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

im gonna guess that packer, brown and maybe best saw a different couple, perhaps the same one, and that marshall, schwartz and smith saw stride and the ripper.

As you know, Schwartz claimed to follow the first man down Berner St, who stops at the gates where Stride is. How does that fit with Smith's testimony?

First man: ... had nothing in his hands.

Smith: I noticed he had a newspaper parcel in his hand. It was about 18in. in length and 6in. or 8in. in width.

Either Schwartz missed this detail, or Parcelman is conspicuous by his absence.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I also see it the way you do, except for Parcelman's parcel. I don't know how it would have been done in Victorian London, but in Australia a half pound of grapes would have been put in a brown paper bag. If Stride had consumed most of the grapes while standing listening to the music she may have discarded the bag when she removed the last of the grapes. Diemshitz informs us that it was windy that night so the bag could have blown away into a stormwater drain. All speculation of course, but presented as an alternative to Parcelman's parcel holding the grapes. I think that parcel was more likely to have been publications from Arbiter Fraint. JMO.

Cheer, George

Hi George.

The size of the package has been a red-herring all along. At 12:30, across a dim lit street we can't correctly estimate the size of something carried by another person. Some posters treat that dimension as if Smith walked across the road and measured it.

But that aside, market stalls have always used newspaper to wrap produce. Packer was a poor man spending money on paper bags is what we do today, newspaper was plentyfull and free, probably not so much today. It had an abundance of uses, even as toilet paper, rip it into squares and hang a bunch on a nail. This is in the day when toilets was outside.
Naturally, this younger generation will try deny such things ever happened.

I'm sure you know what origami is, market traders fold the newspaper into a pouch, it looks very similar to an envelope, only larger.
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about - it's nothing new.

https://www.themakeyourownzone.com/recycle-old-newspapers-to-make-your-own-bags/

Thats how small berries, fruit, nuts, etc., were wrapped. I wrapped meat in newspaper when I worked at the butchers, and of course everyone knows there's only one way to serve fish & chips -- in newspaper!
Jews started that off too, fried fish & chips, and they wrapped them in newspaper. Now we see brown paper, or greaseproof paper, or those styrofoam containers, but I'm getting off subject now.

The point is, a poor backstreet market stall holder will for sure use newspaper to wrap his produce in Victorian England.