Ripper Confidential by Tom Wescott (2017)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That is absolutely spot on.
What is so unusual about a customer buying grapes, or walking past the club, or standing opposite and listening to the singing?
Should we expect he told police he had two suspicious customers last night, they bought grapes - black one's. Then walked up to the club, then crossed the road and stood in the rain.
What are we to expect the police to do about that?

Smith: It rained very little after eleven o'clock.

Blackwell: The clothes were not wet with rain.

No, what he saw was perfectly normal. The problem the police had was Packer thought the time was 10:45 when this couple came to his shop window, then he said 11:45.
He told the police he shut up his shop about 11:30, but changed it to 12:30.
The story he gave to the press seems to be more like reality, but the police do not appear to have received an official statement from Packer to revise his first statement.
The police knew the correct story, but unless the correction came from Packer they cannot use him.

Perhaps what he saw was so normal that he was confused about which night he saw it.

[Wickerman]

Smith: It rained very little after eleven o'clock.

Blackwell: The clothes were not wet with rain.

Yes, I'm aware of what Blackwell said, but it is worded as if he thought her clothes were wet from some other reason than rain.

Diemschutz &/or Kozebrodski were attributed as pointing out...
"It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain".

PC Smith does not say it did not rain.

Yet that is what some theorists would prefer to believe.

Perhaps what he saw was so normal that he was confused about which night he saw it.

Packer's wife also commented on the same couple standing in the rain.

[Scott Nelson]

Hi Scott,

Bromley posited that Smith walked south on the western side of Berner, past Mortimer's door, and then north on the eastern side, past Stride and Parcelman. Are you aware of any indication given by Mortimer as to which direction the measured footfalls that she heard were were headed. I can't find anything in that regard. If the footfalls were headed south it would remove the possibility that she was hearing the escape of the killer.

Cheers, George

Hi George, I've found nothing on the direction of audible footfalls, but I should think that Mortimer would still be able to discern their direction if she was at her door when the killer fled.

[Scott Nelson]

It's been a while since I read Bromley's analysis, so I forget the details. Though according to your explanation Gavin's analysis was based on his own estimates?
Do you see the problem there?
I notice the article is in Dissertations
https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...iths-beat.html

That's what I've concluded Jon. Bromley's analysis is based on his timing reconstructions. Berner Street apparently wasn't a normal part of Smith's beat. The location is based solely on Smith's inquest testimony of seeing Stride and the man. The location could be a problem, but Bromley is pretty meticulous.

[Wickerman]

Yes Scott, in all cases (diagrams) Gavin has PC Smith walk south past Mortimer's house to Fairclough, then cross the street and walk north up the Board School side of Berner St. Yet police beats are not known to cover both sides of the same street.
Which made me wonder where he got the idea the constable had to patrol both sides of the same street, once was enough.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, I'm aware of what Blackwell said, but it is worded as if he thought her clothes were wet from some other reason than rain.

Diemschutz &/or Kozebrodski were attributed as pointing out...
"It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain".

PC Smith does not say it did not rain.

Yet that is what some theorists would prefer to believe.


Packer's wife also commented on the same couple standing in the rain.

James Brown said there was no rain when he returned from the shop. The Evening News report suggests the couple were standing in the rain, opposite Packer's shop, for at least half an hour. What approximate half-hour period do you suppose this was?

[GBinOz]

William Smith, 452 H Division:
It rained very little after eleven o'clock.

William Marshall:
While I was standing at my door, from half-past eleven to twelve, there was no rain at all.

[Wickerman]

James Brown said there was no rain when he returned from the shop. The Evening News report suggests the couple were standing in the rain, opposite Packer's shop, for at least half an hour. What approximate half-hour period do you suppose this was?

Well, if we look at the various quotes and statements attributed to Packer, we see the police summary, signed by Sgt. White is where the first contention is found.
When asked when did he shut up his shop, Packer said "At half-past twelve, in consequence of the rain" (half-past twelve struck out, replaced with half-past eleven).
Which would seem to suggest it rained from 12:00-12:30, roughly.

In the Evening News he told the reporter the couple stood opposite his shop for half an hour, in the rain, until 12:15. Although, he does say elsewhere that he shut up shop at 12:30, and left the couple standing in the rain.

So, whether it was half an hour, or just more or less, is not clear. It also could have been 11:45-12:15 or 12:00-12:30, or something in between.
It doesn't need to be precise.

[Sunny Delight]

Has Matthew Packer not be completely discredited by almost every historian that has studied the case?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So, whether it was half an hour, or just more or less, is not clear. It also could have been 11:45-12:15 or 12:00-12:30, or something in between.
It doesn't need to be precise.

As Marshall tells us it was not raining when he went in at midnight, it would seem the period must have commenced after that point. In the 12:00-12:30 period we have the 'walking couple' on Berner St, and we have Wess going home with his brother, who leave the club with another man and they walk east on Fairclough St. Had Stride and Parcelman been across from Packer's shop at the time, the three men would have walked right passed them. Morning Advertiser:

Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?-I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.

Did you see no one nearer?-No, sir.

Wess doesn't seem to have mentioned there being any rain at this time. Only Best and Gardner mention strong rainfall, at around 11pm.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Has Matthew Packer not be completely discredited by almost every historian that has studied the case?

In #619, I said ...

While I'm dubious about the Evening News story, I think those who dismiss Packer should have something to say about Diemschitz and Kozebrodski's reference to grapes in her hand, and Phillips reference to the fruit-stained handkerchief.

What do the historians have to say on these points?

[Wickerman]

Has Matthew Packer not be completely discredited by almost every historian that has studied the case?

Packer was never discredited, by that I mean he didn't tell the police something that they discovered to be false.
He was more like dismissed by modern researchers because Swanson said he couldn't be used, but Swanson was talking about a trial witness.

The police always look towards the day when they catch the killer and he is brought to trial. All the witnesses need to have a solid story that cannot be refuted because they will be cross examined. Packer was not a strong witness, he couldn't remember if he saw Stride between 10:45-11:30 or 11:45-12:30.

The police probably knew it was the second time window (11:45-12:30), because Stride had been seen outside the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00 pm, so she couldn't have been buying grapes from Packer at that time. There was nothing wrong with Packer's story about Stride appearing with a man, them buying grapes, then standing in the street. Packer said he wrapped the grapes in a package. So it is more likely the man would be carrying the pkg.
This is what PC Smith said, he saw Stride with a man about 12:30-35, he was carrying a pkg, of or in, newspaper.

[Wickerman]

As Marshall tells us it was not raining when he went in at midnight, it would seem the period must have commenced after that point. In the 12:00-12:30 period we have the 'walking couple' on Berner St, and we have Wess going home with his brother, who leave the club with another man and they walk east on Fairclough St. Had Stride and Parcelman been across from Packer's shop at the time, the three men would have walked right passed them. Morning Advertiser:

Did you meet anybody in Berner-street?-I can't recollect; but as I went along Fairclough-street, close by, I noticed some men and women standing together.

Did you see no one nearer?-No, sir.

Wess doesn't seem to have mentioned there being any rain at this time. Only Best and Gardner mention strong rainfall, at around 11pm.

Yes, thanks for that.
Negative evidence isn't evidence though. The problem with rain in England is, when you're used to it every day, it's nothing special.

[GBinOz]

The problem with rain in England is, when you're used to it every day, it's nothing special.

Hi Jon,

It has been bothering me that Packer and his wife were giggling about the couple standing in the rain, when the rain had been reported to have all but stopped around 11pm. But they were on the ground floor of a two story building looking through a smallish aperture into the street in the dark. Did they just assume that it was still raining? In my mind, your comment reinforces that possibility.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi George, yes but rain comes and goes.
It looks to me like it rained again after 12:00, it's like that in England, stops & starts, sometimes it will do that all day.

The weather report for Sat. 29 Sept. reads:

"Dull morning; fine day; sudden heavy rain at "9.30 p.m." lasting till after midnight"