Crippen

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was wondering if anyone had read this one yet? It’s not long out. I bet that Jon Menges has it already.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Story-Murder-historical-true-crime-bestselling/dp/0857527312/ref=sr_1_1?crid=OUM5E3DSW0GH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.7c_F v-LJWWF7M32wKylDlAlp06CUL3YpI6rMXEqLw5DPtsstnsVjxO3A gB5oe7CxaEHnWgMfMFDUqyT3ElO4G8dbGUZeTUbouDyg_ycm2m i9If43wOAHtSUBomsm43A-ObvSWVHrglbo90-2fJtdq9iCDSqYH0O3l1uAvpkbrn0.iipZGxDccKgj2kJMhqNZc cl9HFbRLC-cVmkXbDe2ZoI&dib_tag=se&keywords=Halle+Rubenhold&q id=1744150183&s=books&sprefix=halle+rubenhold%2Cst ripbooks%2C61&sr=1-1

[jmenges]

I’ve read it. Mark Ripper has a review coming in the next issue of the Rip as I’m conflicted out - she thanks me in the acknowledgments. With that disclosure out of the way I think it’s a really good book. Definitive, even. A must have if you’re interested in the case.

JM

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve read it. Mark Ripper has a review coming in the next issue of the Rip as I’m conflicted out - she thanks me in the acknowledgments. With that disclosure out of the way I think it’s a really good book. Definitive, even. A must have if you’re interested in the case.

JM

Thanks Jon. I have a holiday coming up so this could be my holiday read.

[c.d.]

Hello Herlock,

I thought Hallie Rubenhold was on your persona non grata list.

As I mentioned before, I thought Supper with the Crippens by David James Smith was really good.

c.d.

[jmenges]

Supper with the Crippens is really good, and in my opinion the best book written on the case before the release of Hallie’s. I’d guess this one is at least twice as long as The Five and the deepest dive research-wise as you’re ever likely to see.

JM

[Ms Diddles]

Hello Herlock,

I thought Hallie Rubenhold was on your persona non grata list.

As I mentioned before, I thought Supper with the Crippens by David James Smith was really good.

c.d.

Agree c.d.

Supper with the Crippens was excellent.

I was waiting to see what the word on the street was re this new Rubenhold book.

It sounds like it's worth a read.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock,

I thought Hallie Rubenhold was on your persona non grata list.

As I mentioned before, I thought Supper with the Crippens by David James Smith was really good.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

I certainly didn’t like her agenda when it came to The Five and the setting up of ripperologists as the bad guys.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There’s even a biography of Halle Rubenhold out.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0F2GFW5H7?SubscriptionId=AKIAJKOKUN4EWQH6OEPQ&tag =123pc-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953

Correction. Two biographies.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0F31D6LBB?SubscriptionId=AKIAJKOKUN4EWQH6OEPQ&tag=123pc-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953

[mpriestnall]

There’s even a biography of Halle Rubenhold out.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0F2GFW5H7?SubscriptionId=AKIAJKOKUN4EWQH6OEPQ&tag =123pc-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953

Correction. Two biographies.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...reative=165953

Thanks for posting these links.

Quotes from both books' blurbs:

"An unyielding commitment to the truth" and "fearless pursuit of truth in historical storytelling"

That's good to know!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I got the Kindle version of this today and am currently reading it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have to say that I’m enjoying Halle Rubenhold’s book on Crippen. Perhaps it’s futile to try and understand a murderer though but I keep wondering about his thinking…

How did Crippen judged other people? By that I mean their intelligence levels or their gullibility? I know that killers can see themselves as intellectually superior but Crippen would have had to have seen everyone else as idiots. On the 1st of February he visited the Marcinetti’s to see how Paul Marcinetti was. He and his wife Clara had visited the Crippen’s the night before and Paul had been taken ill. His wife told him that Paul was asleep and she asked him how Belle was. Crippen replied “oh, she is alright.”

The next day, Wednesday, Belle was due to attend a meeting of the Music Hall Ladies Guild (she was the Treasurer) but Ethel Le Neve turns up with two letters. Le Neve worked for Crippen in the same building that the Guild held their meetings so she was a familiar face. The two letters explained that Belle had to immediately resign her position as Treasurer due to the fact that she had to travel to America because of the illness of a family member. The letters were ‘dictated’ and written by Crippen himself.

The following Monday when he sees the Martinetti’s he tells them that Belle went on family business involving a title and that she might be gone for 6 months. He also said that he was thinking of selling the furniture and that she had only taken a single wicker case of clothing with her which Clara thought very strange. Crippen said that she would buy clothes when she needed them.

They asked him if he was going to attend a Benefit Fund Dinner and he at first appeared reluctant but then requested two tickets. Obviously they wondered who he was going to take now that his wife was in America. The dinner was on Sunday 20th at The Criterion restaurant and Crippen turned up with Ethel Le Neve, his typist! And she wore a gold and diamond broach that was recognised as belonging to Belle.


Back to my original question on how he judged people? If someone has just killed their spouse and was trying to convince everyone that everything was ok and that she was just abroad on business why act like this? Could he really think that no one would see this as suspicious?

[Ms Diddles]

I have to say that I’m enjoying Halle Rubenhold’s book on Crippen. Perhaps it’s futile to try and understand a murderer though but I keep wondering about his thinking…

How did Crippen judged other people? By that I mean their intelligence levels or their gullibility? I know that killers can see themselves as intellectually superior but Crippen would have had to have seen everyone else as idiots. On the 1st of February he visited the Marcinetti’s to see how Paul Marcinetti was. He and his wife Clara had visited the Crippen’s the night before and Paul had been taken ill. His wife told him that Paul was asleep and she asked him how Belle was. Crippen replied “oh, she is alright.”

The next day, Wednesday, Belle was due to attend a meeting of the Music Hall Ladies Guild (she was the Treasurer) but Ethel Le Neve turns up with two letters. Le Neve worked for Crippen in the same building that the Guild held their meetings so she was a familiar face. The two letters explained that Belle had to immediately resign her position as Treasurer due to the fact that she had to travel to America because of the illness of a family member. The letters were ‘dictated’ and written by Crippen himself.

The following Monday when he sees the Martinetti’s he tells them that Belle went on family business involving a title and that she might be gone for 6 months. He also said that he was thinking of selling the furniture and that she had only taken a single wicker case of clothing with her which Clara thought very strange. Crippen said that she would buy clothes when she needed them.

They asked him if he was going to attend a Benefit Fund Dinner and he at first appeared reluctant but then requested two tickets. Obviously they wondered who he was going to take now that his wife was in America. The dinner was on Sunday 20th at The Criterion restaurant and Crippen turned up with Ethel Le Neve, his typist! And she wore a gold and diamond broach that was recognised as belonging to Belle.


Back to my original question on how he judged people? If someone has just killed their spouse and was trying to convince everyone that everything was ok and that she was just abroad on business why act like this? Could he really think that no one would see this as suspicious?

Hi Herlock,

I have always wondered about the brazen stupidity of Crippen attending the Benefit Fund Dinner with Ethel decked out in Belle's jewellery.

That would be reckless behaviour for a married man engaged in an illicit affair with his secretary, but for someone who had actually murdered his wife, it's madness!

The only suggestions which I can make by way of explanation are;

1) Crippen was so utterly besotted with Ethel and perhaps keen to impress her with the exclusive event and his apparent high society contacts (who were actually Belle's friends!) that he threw caution to the wind and made the ill-judged decision to bring her as his plus one. You know, stick with me and these are the kind of exalted circles you'll be moving in and glamorous events you'll be attending kinda thing.

2) Crippen had lead quite a transient lifestyle. From what I understand he moved around a lot without really putting down roots. Perhaps he underestimated the strength of female bonds of friendship. It was anathema to him that Belle's friends would care enough to question her disappearance, so he didn't think anyone would bother to question his behaviour beyond a bit of harmless gossip.

I have a feeling that if Crippen had stuck to (and remained consistent in) his story that Belle had gone abroad and kept Ethel out of view for a reasonable period, he'd likely have failed to arouse suspicion.

I've just started the Rubenhold book too and agree it's impressive stuff so far.

I am not so familiar with the Crippen case though.

Would I have thought The Five was equally brilliant had I not been familiar enough with the the case to spot the cherry-picking though?

I'm not sure!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I have always wondered about the brazen stupidity of Crippen attending the Benefit Fund Dinner with Ethel decked out in Belle's jewellery.

That would be reckless behaviour for a married man engaged in an illicit affair with his secretary, but for someone who had actually murdered his wife, it's madness!

The only suggestions which I can make by way of explanation are;

1) Crippen was so utterly besotted with Ethel and perhaps keen to impress her with the exclusive event and his apparent high society contacts (who were actually Belle's friends!) that he threw caution to the wind and made the ill-judged decision to bring her as his plus one. You know, stick with me and these are the kind of exalted circles you'll be moving in and glamorous events you'll be attending kinda thing.

2) Crippen had lead quite a transient lifestyle. From what I understand he moved around a lot without really putting down roots. Perhaps he underestimated the strength of female bonds of friendship. It was anathema to him that Belle's friends would care enough to question her disappearance, so he didn't think anyone would bother to question his behaviour beyond a bit of harmless gossip.

I have a feeling that if Crippen had stuck to (and remained consistent in) his story that Belle had gone abroad and kept Ethel out of view for a reasonable period, he'd likely have failed to arouse suspicion.

I've just started the Rubenhold book too and agree it's impressive stuff so far.

I am not so familiar with the Crippen case though.

Would I have thought The Five was equally brilliant had I not been familiar enough with the the case to spot the cherry-picking though?

I'm not sure!

Hi Ms D,

Good points.

I’m also a bit of a novice on the Crippen case. I think that I’ve read three or four books but that has been spread over a period of 40 years or so.

I think that we all tend to view things in terms of ‘well I wouldn’t have done that’ but we aren’t murderers (honest) and Crippen wasn’t just a murderer (possibly a double one) but also a con man. He actually has something in common with Tumblety. Maybe as a conman he felt that he was just believable? I tend to think that he had a level of superiority which I think, if memory serves, was said about Shipman. Maybe a sense of ‘I’m far too clever for these idiot’?

It’s possibly a case of a combination of your two points plus his being a con man with a sense of superiority.

It’s a wonder that they could enjoy their meals with the alarm bells going off.

[Ms Diddles]

I think that we all tend to view things in terms of ‘well I wouldn’t have done that’ but we aren’t murderers (honest) and Crippen wasn’t just a murderer (possibly a double one) but also a con man. He actually has something in common with Tumblety. Maybe as a conman he felt that he was just believable? I tend to think that he had a level of superiority which I think, if memory serves, was said about Shipman. Maybe a sense of ‘I’m far too clever for these idiot’?

Very true!

I wonder if the prestige attached to his "dr" status made him feel he was beyond suspicion (even though as you say like Tumblety he was really a snake oil pedlar).

He evidently wasn't the sharpest tool in the box himself if his post-murder behaviour was anything to go by.

It also occurred to me that his behaviour on the ship when escaping to New York was similarly stupid or reckless.

IIRC the suspicions of the captain were aroused by his walking around on deck holding hands with his "son" (Ethel).

He either thought everyone was supremely stupid, or he wanted to get caught (subconsciously or otherwise).

In terms of the murder he'd likely have got away with it, but essentially his behaviour afterwards is what got him hung.

He really wasn't a criminal genius!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Very true!

I wonder if the prestige attached to his "dr" status made him feel he was beyond suspicion (even though as you say like Tumblety he was really a snake oil pedlar).

He evidently wasn't the sharpest tool in the box himself if his post-murder behaviour was anything to go by.

It also occurred to me that his behaviour on the ship when escaping to New York was similarly stupid or reckless.

IIRC the suspicions of the captain were aroused by his walking around on deck holding hands with his "son" (Ethel).

He either thought everyone was supremely stupid, or he wanted to get caught (subconsciously or otherwise).

In terms of the murder he'd likely have got away with it, but essentially his behaviour afterwards is what got him hung.

He really wasn't a criminal genius!

He certainly wasn’t. You tend to find yourself giving him posthumous ‘how to get away with it’ advice. Not turning up at a dinner/dance, full of your wife’s friends and colleagues, with your young secretary on your arm wearing a showy broach owned by your wife just after she has mysteriously and totally out of the blue gone to America without telling anyone but him…would be a good starter

No need to call at 221b for this one.