The Missing Evidence - New Ripper Documentary

[Fisherman]

Anyone else getting that? No?

I would guess some people "get it".

But I donīt think all people will.

And I actually have a good guess as to which groups the getter and the non-getters will belong.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Fisherman

I don't wish to be rude, but do you have some sort of reading difficulty?

Why would I think that rude?

No, I donīt. Do you?

The best,
Fisherman

[Rob Clack]

Can any Lechmere supporter place Lechmere near the sight of any Whitechapel Murder (excluding Nicholls) at the time it was committed? No

Can any Lechmere supporter place Lechmere near the sight of any murder (ignoring completely different M.Os) at the time they were committed? No

The whole case is as Ed demonstrated above built on ifs and buts. Desperation. There were other clubs and pubs closer to James Street than Berner Street area. Why would he even go anywhere near Berner Street? Obviously he wouldn't. No ties and no reason to walk through it or go anywhere near it.

[Fisherman]

Just to get some perspective here, the so-called "close" proximity of the Stride murder scene to Crossmere's mum's house is actually a greater distance than that between the Victoria Home and THREE murder scenes.

I mean, if that's what it takes to create a "strong association"...

Well, Ben, if you want to encircle ALL the murder sites and find ties with one man, you cannot diminish the area to a smaller on than the one represented by the murder spots.

If you want to speak of three killings in proximity to the Victoria home, how do you explain the others? What ties were there between fro example Hutchinson and Berner Street? Buckīs Row? Mitre Square?

Itīs not about choosing one murder or two or three that may fit your bill. It is about finding a connection to all of them.

Lechmere fits that bill. And nobody else does, other than in terms of "Iīm sure that he could have gone there on that night - anybody could". That is a method that works universally - and therefore worthless as a discriminating tool.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Rob Clack]

I donīt mind whether we speak of Norris, Scobie or Griffiths. It s not as if any of them are opposed to the Lechmere theory, is it.

I would be more interested in there opinions if they were given the full facts and not drip fed the Lechmere case.

[Chris]

Why would I think that rude?

No, I donīt. Do you?

Well, in that case, I'll try again.

You wrote:
"You could reach Cannon Street via Berner Street, coming from Lechmereīs lodgings."

Would you agree that if someone was going from Lechmere's house to his mother's house, then going by Berner Street would be well out of their way? (If you can bring yourself to give a direct answer we can all save a lot of time.)

[Rob Clack]

Lechmere had no connection with Mitre Square or Berner Street or even Dorset Street.

[Fisherman]

Rob Clack: Can any Lechmere supporter place Lechmere near the sight of any Whitechapel Murder (excluding Nicholls) at the time it was committed? No.

Not with certainty, no.

But as you have noticed, we can to begin with prove that Lechmere was in Bucks Row at the approximate time of the Nichols murder.

After that, we know that he had logical reasons to pass the Chapman site, the Tabram site and the Kelly site. Moreover, it can be reasoned that the time when he went to work fits the bill too.

Moreover, Stride was killed in the middle of his old haunts, at a time that could fit with him visiting the area on the night before his day off.

Moreover, Eddowes was killed in a spot that he could have arrived at when walking along his old working route from Berner Street towards the general area surrounding the prostitution grounds by St Botolphīs.

And as you know, there is not one singe other suspect that comes anywhere even close to this. Not one. Not nearly.

The whole case is as Ed demonstrated above built on ifs and buts.

All suspect cases are built to some extent on conjecture. If they were built on facts only, the case would have been a solved one.

But in the Lechmere case, it is even resented that we suggest that he conciously mislead the police by calling himself Cross, in spite of us having more than a hundred signatures, all saying Lechmere, and in spite of there being no evidence at all that he ever called himself Cross other than in combination with the Nichols murder.

It is nevertheless called bad conjecture and a ridiculous suggestion!

Such is the quality of the criticism against the Lechmere theory.

A highly graded PC is pointed out as the more probable liar than a man that in all probability lied about his name when speaking to the police in a murder case where he had been found alone with the victim!

Such is the quality of the criticism against the Lechmere theory.

There were other clubs and pubs closer to James Street than Berner Street area. Why would he even go anywhere near Berner Street? Obviously he wouldn't. No ties and no reason to walk through it or go anywhere near it.

...and SUCH is the quality of the criticism of the Lechmere theory: It is claimed that Lechmere had "no ties" to Berner Street, placed right in the middle of the five places where he grew up and lived for many, many years: Holloway Street, Sion Square, Thomas Street, Mary Ann Street, James Street - he arrived here when he was around eight, and he spent thirty years in this exact area, growing up, making friends, frequenting pubs, shopping for food, walking the streets - and still it is claimed that he had "no ties" to Berner Street, smack bang in the midst of the area. And three months only had passed since he moved out!

This is not an example of justified criticism. This is completely outlandish and out of touch with reality. It resembles saying that Queen Elizabeth has no ties to Buckingham Palace after having spent the summer in Scotland.

The one and only good thing about posts like this one is that they make it abundantly clear just how bad the Lechmere theory criticism is. In that respect, one could not ask for a more obvious example.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi Fisherman,

I'm afraid, as others have pointed out, Crossmere is not remotely "tied" to any other crime scene than Nichols. Walking through the general area in which the murders were committed does not qualify as a "tie" - not when thousands of men were actually living IN that murder region. If we had any good reason to think the real ripper would kill en route to work (such as an example of at least one other known serial killer in history behaving in such a fashion) things would be a little different. But alas...

Living "close" to three crime scenes doesn't create a "tie" to them either, but it's nearer to being one than anything proposed of Crossmere.

Regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Well, in that case, I'll try again.

You wrote:
"You could reach Cannon Street via Berner Street, coming from Lechmereīs lodgings."

Would you agree that if someone was going from Lechmere's house to his mother's house, then going by Berner Street would be well out of their way? (If you can bring yourself to give a direct answer we can all save a lot of time.)


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Iīm afraid it seems that you are the one that missed out on the reading here. While it is not the closest route - something I never said it was - I donīt see why he couldnīt have chosen to walk through his old haunts down to Cable Street anyway.

If I had said that it WAS the closest route, you would have had a case.

But in the overall matter, I have already told you that

A/ You are the one that seemingly thinks that I predispose that Lechmere must have visited his mothers that evening - which he could have, but which he must not have - and
B/ He would not have killed Stride en route to Cable Street but instead en route FROM Cable Street, going by the timings.

If you want to make a meal about Berner STreet not being the quickest and closest route down to Cable Street from Doveton Street, then go ahead. Just keep in mind that I didnīt say so either.

And please donīt forget that the link he had to the area as such is the one thing we can be absolutely certain about.

Well, some of us can, at elast. According to Rob, Lechmere had no ties to Berner Street.

Now you can choose - discuss something that I have not said as if it mattered in the overall picture, or discuss the fact that he could have had a hundred reasons to visit the Berner Street area - AND his mother, living very close by - on any given Saturday evening.

All the best
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

I'm afraid, as others have pointed out, Crossmere is not remotely "tied" to any other crime scene than Nichols. Walking through the general area in which the murders were committed does not qualify as a "tie" - not when thousands of men were actually living IN that murder region. If we had any good reason to think the real ripper would kill en route to work (such as an example of at least one other known serial killer in history behaving in such a fashion) things would be a little different. But alas...

Living "close" to three crime scenes doesn't create a "tie" to them either, but it's nearer to being one than anything proposed of Crossmere.

Regards,
Ben

Lechmere was found alone with the victim in Bucks Row. The two logical routes to work for him were the Hanbury Street trek and the Old Montague trek.
That is quite enough to establish a logically based suggestion that he would have passed nearby four of the murder sites. For the other two, equally logical suggestions have been proposed - and accepted as being of importance by Scobie and Griffiths.

So what you personally think on the matter is kind of outranked by that, Iīm afraid.

And actually, that very much applied before Scobie and Griffiths too.

Keep in mind that out here, it is considered legitimate to claim that Lechmere had no ties to Berner Street. If that can happen, then itīs time to look in other places for more discerning judgments.

So think as you will, Ben, it wonīt change the reality of the matter anyway.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

And now I intend to leave this thread for a period of time. I have better things to do than to answer the sort of criticism that bubbles up to the swamp surface here ...

All the best.
Fisherman

[Sally]

he could have had a hundred reasons to visit the Berner Street area

Perhaps we could have a list?

Just kidding

[Robert]

The musings of Charles Allen Crossmere :

"OK, Charlie, now sit down and think the thing through. That birdbrain Paul has been interviewed by Lloyds. What are you going to do now? The police might get on to you, and you'll have to explain that whopper you told the PC. And it will look bad for you if they turn you up when you haven't come forward. Bugger! Maybe you should go down to the police station. You'll just have to brazen it out at the inquest. Give them your name, place of work, and address. Be as straight with them as you can, within limits. Goes against the grain, though.

Wait a minute! I could get away with telling them I'm called 'Cross.' Yeah! Good idea! Clever chap, Charlie!

Oh hang on. It will look bad for you if they find out that's not your usual name. Sod it."

MRS CROSSMERE : Charlie, the bloke from the Pickfords Social Club says they can't book Dan Leno after all.

CROSSMERE : Bloody hell! We'll be stuck with Bert Linford playing the spoons. OK, coming.

"Hmm, what was that I thought of just now? Knocked it clean out of my head. Probably nothing important....we're not having bloody Bert Linford with his spoons, I know that for a fact."


I think he simply told the police that he only used 'Lechmere' for official purposes and everyone knew him as 'Cross.'

[The Good Michael]

The musings of Charles Allen Crossmere :

"OK, Charlie, now sit down and think the thing through. That birdbrain Paul has been interviewed by Lloyds. What are you going to do now? The police might get on to you, and you'll have to explain that whopper you told the PC. And it will look bad for you if they turn you up when you haven't come forward. Bugger! Maybe you should go down to the police station. You'll just have to brazen it out at the inquest. Give them your name, place of work, and address. Be as straight with them as you can, within limits. Goes against the grain, though.

Wait a minute! I could get away with telling them I'm called 'Cross.' Yeah! Good idea! Clever chap, Charlie!

Oh hang on. It will look bad for you if they find out that's not your usual name. Sod it."

MRS CROSSMERE : Charlie, the bloke from the Pickfords Social Club says they can't book Dan Leno after all.

CROSSMERE : Bloody hell! We'll be stuck with Bert Linford playing the spoons. OK, coming.

"Hmm, what was that I thought of just now? Knocked it clean out of my head. Probably nothing important....we're not having bloody Bert Linford with his spoons, I know that for a fact."


I think he simply told the police that he only used 'Lechmere' for official purposes and everyone knew him as 'Cross.'

Yep. I just sort of posted that on the other thread...well, not just, but you know what I mean.

Mike