The Missing Evidence - New Ripper Documentary

[Stewart P Evans]

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suggested that we should shift her, but I said, “No, let us go and tell a policeman.” I did not notice any blood. The Coroner – Did you not see her throat was cut? Witness – No; it was very dark at the time. We left together and went up Baker’s-row, where we met a constable. I said to him, “There is a woman in Buck’s-row on the broad of her back. She is dead or else drunk.” The constable said he would go, and I left him and went on to work. The Coroner – Did you see Police-constable Neil about? Witness – No; I did not see anyone at all except the constable I spoke to. I don’t think I met anybody after I left my house till I got to the body. – The Morning Post, Tuesday, 4 September 1888.

A carman in the employ of Messrs. Pickford and Co., named Charles A. Cross, who found the body said: “I left home about half-past 3 on Friday morning to go to work, and in passing through Buck’s Row, saw something lying against a gateway. I could not tell in the dark what it was at first; it looked to me like a tarpaulin sheet, but stepping into the road, I saw that it was the body of a woman. Just then I heard a man – about 40 yards off – approaching from the direction that I myself had come from. I waited for the man, who started on one side as if afraid that I meant to knock him down. I said “Come and look over here, there’s a woman.” We then went over to the body. I took hold of the hands of the woman, and the other man stooped over her head to look at her. Feeling the hands cold and limp, I said “I believe she’s dead,” her face felt warm. The other man put his hand on her heart, saying, “I think she’s breathing, but it is very little if she is.” The man suggested that we should move her, but I would not touch her. He then tried to pull her clothes down to cover her legs, but they did not seem as if they would come down. I did not notice that her throat was cut.” On being further questioned, this witness said the deceased looked then as if she had been outraged, and had gone off in a swoon. – The Eastern Argus and Borough of Hackney Times, Saturday, 8 September 1888.

Police-constable Mizen deposed that at about a quarter to four o’clock on Friday morning, while he was at the corner of Hanbury-street and Baker’s-row, a carman passing by, in company with another man, said, “You are wanted in Buck’s-row by a policeman. A woman is lying there.” The witness then went to Buck’s-row, and Police-constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. Nobody but Neil was with the body at that time. – In reply to a juryman, witness said that when the carman spoke to him he was engaged in knocking people up, and he finished knocking at the one place where he was at the time, giving two or three knocks, and then went directly to Buck’s-row, not wanting to knock up anyone else. – The Illustrated Police News, Saturday, 8 September 1888.

Charles A. Cross, a carman, said that he was in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. He left home about half-past three o’clock on Friday morning to go to work, and in passing through Buck’s-row he saw on the opposite side something lying against a gateway. He could not tell in the dark what it was at first. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but, stepping into the middle of the road, he saw that it was the body of a woman. At this time he heard a man – about forty yards off – approaching from the direction that witness himself had come from. He waited for the man, who started on one side, as if afraid that witness meant to knock him down. Witness said, “Come and look over here. There’s a woman.” They then went over to the body. Witness took hold of the hands of the woman, and the other man...
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[Stewart P Evans]

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stooped over her head to look at her. Feeling the hands cold and limp witness said, “I believe she’s dead.” Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man put his head on her heart saying, “I think she’s breathing, but it is very little if she is.” The man suggested that they should “shift her,” meaning to set her upright. Witness answered, “I am not going to touch her.” The other man tried to pull her clothes down to cover her legs, but they did not seem as if they would come down. Her bonnet was off, but close to her head. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut. The night was very dark. Witness and the other man left the woman, and in Baker’s-row they saw Police-constable Mizen. They told him that a woman was lying in Buck’s-row, witness adding, “She looks to me to be either dead or drunk.” The other man observed, “I think she’s dead.” The policeman replied, “All right.” The other man, who appeared to be a carman, left witness soon afterwards. Witness did not see Constable Neil. He saw no one except the man that overtook him, the constable in Baker’s-row whom he spoke to, and the deceased. In reply to further questions, the witness said the deceased looked to him at the time as if she had been outraged, and had gone off in a swoon. He had then no idea that she was so seriously injured. The other man merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, but he was behind time. Witness was behind time himself. He did not tell constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him in Buck’s-row. – The Illustrated Police News, Saturday, 8 September 1888.

Charles Cross, a carman in the service of Messrs. Pickford, stated that he discovered the body when going to his work. From the position in which the body was lying, his first impression was that the woman had been outraged. – Manchester Times, Saturday, 8 September 1888.

Charles Andrew Cross [sic], carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for over 20 years. About half-past three on Friday he left his home to go to work, and he passed through Buck’s-row. He discerned on the opposite side something lying against the gateway, but he could not at once make out what it was. He thought it was a tarpaulin sheet. He walked into the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck’s-row, about 40 yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from. When he came up witness said to him, “Come and look over here; there is a woman lying on the pavement.” They both crossed over to the body, and the witness then took hold of the woman’s hands, which were cold and limp. Witness said, “I believe she is dead.” He touched her face, which felt warm. The other man, placing his hand on her heart, said, “I think she is breathing, but very little if she is.” Witness suggested that they should give her a prop, but his companion refused to touch her. Just then they heard a policeman coming. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut, the night being very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker’s-row they met the last witness, whom they informed that they had seen a woman lying in Buck’s-row. Witness said, “She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead.” The policeman said, “All right,” and then walked on. The other man left witness soon after. Witness had never seen him before. Replying to the coroner, witness denied having seen Police-constable Neil in Buck’s-row. There was nobody there when he and the other man left. In his opinion deceased looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon; but
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[Stewart P Evans]

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he had no idea that there were any serious injuries. The Coroner: Did the other man tell you who he was? Witness: No, sir; he merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, only he was behind time. I was behind time myself. A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck’s-row? Witness: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck’s-row. – Lloyd’s Weekly Newspaper, Sunday, 9 September 1888.

Police-constable Mizen said that about a quarter to four o’clock on Friday morning he was at the corner of Hanbury-street and Baker’s-row, when a carman passing by in company with another man, said, “You are wanted in Buck’s-row by a policeman; a woman is lying there.” The witness went to Buck’s-row, when Police-constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body. On returning with the ambulance, he helped to put the deceased upon it. A Juryman: Did you continue knocking people up after Cross told you you were wanted? Witness: No; I finished knocking up one person. – East London Observer, Sunday, 9 September 1888.

Charles A. Cross, carman, who appeared in court with a rough sack apron on, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for some years. On Friday morning he left home about half-past three to go to work, and passing through Buck’s-row he saw on the opposite side something lying against a gateway. In the dark he could not tell at first what it was. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but walking to the middle of the road he saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time he heard a man about forty yards away coming up Buck’s-row in the direction witness had himself come. He stepped back and waited for the new-comer, who started on one side, as if he feared that the witness meant to knock him down. The witness said, “Come and look over here. There’s a woman.” They both went across to the body, and the witness took hold of the hands while the other man stooped over her head to look at her. The hands were cold and limp, and the witness said, “I believe she’s dead.” Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man placed his hand on her heart, saying, “I think she’s breathing, but its very little if she is.” He suggested that they should “shift her,” meaning in the witness’s opinion that they should seat her upright. The witness replied, “I am not going to touch her.” The woman’s legs were uncovered. Her bonnet was off, but close to her head. The witness did not notice that her throat was cut, as the night was very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker’s-row they saw the last witness, whom they told that a woman was lying in Buck’s-row. The witness added, “She looks to me to be either dead or drunk,” and the other man remarked, “I think she’s dead.” The policeman answered, “All right.” The other man left witness soon afterwards. He appeared to be a carman, but the witness had never seen him before. The Coroner: Did you see Police-constable Neil in Buck’s-row?” The witness: No, sir. I saw no one after leaving home, except the man that overtook me, the constable in Baker’s-row, and the deceased. There was nobody in Buck’s-row when we left. The Coroner: Did the other man tell you who he was? The Witness: No, sir. He merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, but he was behind time. I was behind time myself. A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him in Buck’s-row? The Witness: No; because I did not see a policeman in Buck’s-row. – East London Observer, Sunday 9 September, 1888.

[Stewart P Evans]

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Monday 17 September 1888 Inquest resumed in the morning
Robert Baul [sic – Paul], a carman of 30, Foster-street, Whitechapel, stated he went to work at Cobbett’s-court, Spitalfield. He left home about a quarter to 4 on the Friday morning, and as he was passing up Buck’s-row he saw a man standing in the middle of the road. As witness approached him he walked towards the pavement, and witness stepped on to the roadway in order to pass him. He then touched witness on the shoulder, and said, “Come and look at this woman here.” Witness went with him, and saw a woman lying right across the gateway. Her clothes were raised almost up to her stomach. Witness felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood. They agreed that the best thing they could do would be to tell the first policeman they met. He could not see whether the clothes were torn, and did not feel any other part of her body except the hands and face. They looked to see if there was a constable, but one was not to be seen. While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement. By the coroner. – The morning was rather a chilly one. Witness and the other man walked on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. Up to that time not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he saw the body. He had not met any one before he reached Buck’s-row, and did not see any one running away. – The Times, Tuesday, 18 September 1888 [HO 144/221/A49301C ff 9-10].

Robert Paul, Fo[r]ster-street, Whitechapel – I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four. As I was passing up Buck’s-row I saw a man standing in the roadway. When I got close up to him he said, “Come and look at this woman;” and together we went across the road. There was a woman lying across the gateway, with her clothes disarranged. I felt her hands and face; they were cold. I sent the other man for a policeman. – The Morning Post, 18 September 1888.

Robert Baul [sic - Paul], 30 Fo(r)ster-street, Whitechapel, carman, said as he was going to work at Cobbett’s-court, Spitalfields, he saw in Buck’s-row a man standing in the middle of the road. As witness drew closer he walked towards the pavement, and he (Baul) stepped in the roadway to pass him. The man touched witness on the shoulder and asked him to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway. He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman. Before he reached Buck’s-row he had seen no one running away. – The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday 18 September 1888.

Robert Paul, a carman, said on the morning of the crime he left home just before a quarter to 4. He was passing up Buck’s-row and saw a man standing in the middle of the road. The man touched him upon the shoulder and said, “Come and look at this woman here.” He went
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[GUT]

Despite the policeman’s assertion that he was the first to discover the body, Mr. Paul last night repeated the statement made to our representative on Friday evening that he and another man found the corpse long before the police. He says the policeman he spoke to was not belonging to that beat. Every word he had said was true. – Lloyd’s Weekly Newspaper, Sunday, September 2, 1888.

I just wanted to highlight this, if this is remotely correct where does that leave his 3:45? Since Neil reports the same time. Cross' time to get t all done s shrinking fast.

[Stewart P Evans]

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and saw the woman lying right across a gateway. He felt her hands and face. They were both cold. The morning was very dark. The other man and he agreed that the best thing to be done was to tell the first policeman they met. He arranged the clothes as well as he could. He put his head to the woman’s breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old. He saw no one running away, nor did he notice anything whatever of a suspicious nature. – The East London Advertiser, Saturday, 22 September 1888.
Robert Paul said he lived at 30 Forster-street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck’s-row he saw a man in the middle of the road, who drew his attention to the murdered woman. He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. The body was partly warm, though it was a chilly morning. He and the man discussed what was best to be done, and they decided that they ought to acquaint the first policeman they met with what they had discovered. – The Weekly Dispatch, Sunday, 23 September 1888.

Saturday 22 September 1888 Final day of inquest
The coroner, Wynne Baxter, summing up stated the deceased was first discovered by a carman on his way to work, who passed down Buck’s-row, on the opposite side of the road. Immediately after he had ascertained that the dark object in the gateway was the figure of a woman he heard the approaching footsteps of a man. This proved to be Paul, another carman. Together they went to the woman. The condition of her clothing suggested to them she had been outraged and had fainted. She was only just dead, if life were really extinct. Paul says he felt a slight movement of her breast, and thought she was breathing. Neither of the carmen appeared to have realized the condition of the woman, and no injuries were noticed by them; but that, no doubt, was accounted for by the early hour of the morning and the darkness of the spot. The carmen reported the circumstances to a constable at the corner of Hanbury-street, 300 yards distant, but although he appeared to have started without delay, he found another constable was already there. In fact, Constable Neil must independently have found the body within a few minutes of the finding of it by the two carmen. – The Times, Monday, 24 September 1888.
End

[Stewart P Evans]

Too Kind

Paul obviously thinks you are.

Then he's too kind.

[GUT]

Then he's too kind.

I think most here would say he is accurate.

[Stewart P Evans]

As I have pointed out...

As I have pointed out in the past, the only person wriggling under scrutiny in all this is PC Mizen.

His most serious error was in failing to take the names and addresses of Cross and Paul - bad neglect of duty. He also, as far as Paul was concerned, did not react to their information that a woman was lying in the street not too far away and continued 'knocking up'. Mizen tries to minimize this when giving his evidence to the coroner by saying he merely finished knocking up at one address.

I have no doubt that Cross told him he was needed in Buck's Row - he was. But I believe that Mizen added the words 'by a policeman' to minimize his lack of action on being told this. It would be pointless for Cross to say that a policeman needed him as Paul was with him and would contradict this.

[GUT]

Thanks for posting those compilations Stewart, I note that in a couple of the reports Mizen makes no mention of a Policeman merely "You are wanted down there."

Edited to add: Sorry Stewart our posts crossed.

[Trevor Marriott]

and saw the woman lying right across a gateway. He felt her hands and face. They were both cold. The morning was very dark. The other man and he agreed that the best thing to be done was to tell the first policeman they met. He arranged the clothes as well as he could. He put his head to the woman’s breast and felt a slight breath, such a one as might be felt in a child two or three months old. He saw no one running away, nor did he notice anything whatever of a suspicious nature. – The East London Advertiser, Saturday, 22 September 1888.
Robert Paul said he lived at 30 Forster-street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck’s-row he saw a man in the middle of the road, who drew his attention to the murdered woman. He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. The body was partly warm, though it was a chilly morning. He and the man discussed what was best to be done, and they decided that they ought to acquaint the first policeman they met with what they had discovered. – The Weekly Dispatch, Sunday, 23 September 1888.

Saturday 22 September 1888 Final day of inquest
The coroner, Wynne Baxter, summing up stated the deceased was first discovered by a carman on his way to work, who passed down Buck’s-row, on the opposite side of the road. Immediately after he had ascertained that the dark object in the gateway was the figure of a woman he heard the approaching footsteps of a man. This proved to be Paul, another carman. Together they went to the woman. The condition of her clothing suggested to them she had been outraged and had fainted. She was only just dead, if life were really extinct. Paul says he felt a slight movement of her breast, and thought she was breathing. Neither of the carmen appeared to have realized the condition of the woman, and no injuries were noticed by them; but that, no doubt, was accounted for by the early hour of the morning and the darkness of the spot. The carmen reported the circumstances to a constable at the corner of Hanbury-street, 300 yards distant, but although he appeared to have started without delay, he found another constable was already there. In fact, Constable Neil must independently have found the body within a few minutes of the finding of it by the two carmen. – The Times, Monday, 24 September 1888.
End

Thank you Stewart for posting all of those, perhaps now Christer and Lechmere can see by the coroners summing up why there really is nothing sinister involved in all of this, and they should stop trying to put square pegs into round holes. or perhaps they might argue the coroner got it wrong !

[Stewart P Evans]

Then...

I think most here would say he is accurate.

Then you are too kind. 'Expert' is a dangerous appellation to assume.

[Stewart P Evans]

Compilations

I have many such compilations on my computer. I thought that copying these particular ones over might help others to follow the various arguments being made.

[Trevor Marriott]

I have many such compilations on my computer. I thought that copying these particular ones over might help others to follow the various arguments being made.

I hope there will be no need now for those involved in this program to argue further having read the coroners report but of course that would be wishful thinking.

It was noticeable that this report was overlooked by those involved in the making of the program but of course the explanation will be, there wasn't enough time to cover everything.

[Monty]

Very beneficial,

Thanks Stewart.

Its easy to get lost in argument and counter argument, primary source material cuts through so easily.

Monty