JTR Killer Revealed

[NickB]

There was an interview with Mei Trow on Radio 5 early this morning.
You can listen again at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00n7cvd/Up_All_Night_11_10_2009/

by dragging the time line across to 3 hours 15 minutes.

He concedes that his Robert Mann theory cannot be proved.

This contrasts with an interview I recall on LBC with Stephen Knight when his book came out. The interviewer started by introducing him as someone who had a new theory about Jack the Ripper, and Knight cut in that it was not a theory - he had finally discovered what really happened.

[Chris]

There was an interview with Mei Trow on Radio 5 early this morning.
You can listen again at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00n7cvd/Up_All_Night_11_10_2009/

by dragging the time line across to 3 hours 15 minutes.

Thanks for this.

One thing puzzled me. Trow says that Mann appeared as a witness at two of the inquests. Is that correct?

[John Bennett]

One thing puzzled me. Trow says that Mann appeared as a witness at two of the inquests. Is that correct?

It appears so (I didn't realise this either). This is from The Times inquest report on Annie Chapman, 14 Sept 1888:

"Robert Mann, an inmate of the Whitechapel Union, stated that he had charge of the mortuary. At 7 o'clock on Saturday morning he received the body of the deceased, and remained with it until the doctor arrived at 2 o'clock. Two nurses from the infirmary came and undressed the body. He was not in the shed when that was done."

Some other inquest reports fail to mention him.

[Chris]

It appears so (I didn't realise this either). This is from The Times inquest report on Annie Chapman, 14 Sept 1888:

"Robert Mann, an inmate of the Whitechapel Union, stated that he had charge of the mortuary. At 7 o'clock on Saturday morning he received the body of the deceased, and remained with it until the doctor arrived at 2 o'clock. Two nurses from the infirmary came and undressed the body. He was not in the shed when that was done."

Thanks. The comment of the coroner is interesting:
This is not a mortuary, but simply a shed. Bodies ought not to be taken there. In the East-end, where mortuaries are required more than anywhere else, there are no mortuaries.

One wonders whether the "shed" would really have contained a stock of surgical knives, as Trow suggests.

[adrian]

It will be interesting to know if Trow's research is based on sociological profiling. This means it happens to be someone who fits age, occupation, location. If this be the case then we need more to go on. Did he have convictions for violence. Mental problems etc?
We will find out tonight.

Robert Mann, never heard of him myself, I once knew a Robert Maine?

ADRIAN.

[lynn cates]

Mann/Marne

Hello Chris. I think Mann is listed as Marne in the casebook coroner's inquest for Annie Chapman.

The best.
LC

[The Grave Maurice]

OK, so the programme has been shown by now. What's the opinion of it?

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi Chris,

I saw the programme and it is definitely a mortuary where Robert Mann worked as a mortuary assistant, not a shed.

The new suspect is as good as any other suspect and better than most. All the Ripper victims including the last one killed and who the author names as Alice Mackenzie end up in his slab as well. Robert Mann the new suspect is actually called to court as a witness and crucially he admitted undressing and opening up the body of one of the murdered women, contravening the regulations of the time that dictated a mortuary assistant shouldn't do that without the presence and direction of a doctor.

Dr. Peter Deen who is the present coroner of Whitechappel, gave his opinion that a post-morten knife is a possibility as the murder weapon and is also possible that someone who was standing behind a doctor's shoulder like a mortuary assistant, might have gained knowledge and experience in cutting organs.

In the programme, there was also an expert of the University College London presenting this known technique of geographic profiling which is now being used world-wide to solve serial murder crimes and he came to the conclusion that there was only a three minute walk from where the first victim was found from the mortuary where Mann used to work and only 5 minutes walk from the second one, close to the mortuary where Robert Mann worked. In fact, most of the murders took place on the same radious where Robert Mann grew up, worked, and lived. Stride's body was still warm when she was found. All of these roads where the victims were found, Dufffield yard, Berner St. and Mitre Square are within his killing patch quite close to where he lived and worked.

[#6.]

Any indication of happened to Mann? I mean, any reason given for why the murders ceased?

[Chris]

I saw the programme and it is definitely a mortuary where Robert Mann worked as a mortuary assistant, not a shed.

Thanks, but what I quoted was a statement made by the coroner at Chapman's inquest. Obviously the coroner wouldn't have made it lightly.

On what evidence did the programme argue that he was so seriously mistaken?

[Elias]

Hi all,

Thought the programme was interesting and Mann, or someone like him, is certainly a more viable proposition than some of the other more famous suspects.

Just a point on the geographic profiling bit though. Can this really be considered as relevant evidence when we are plucking previously unknown suspects out of the woodwork? I'm not denying it's very useful in other cases, but surely in this context you could pull any random individual who lived in Whitechapel at the time and find that they all lived in the 'red zone' or near it?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi folks,

Mann and his colleague thought the doctor wanted Polly undressed and ready for autopsy. This proved not to be the case and the doctor and coroner were upset. No doubt, suspicions of necrophilia were tossed around, therefore when Annie Chapman's body rolled onto the slab, two women stayed with her along with Mann until the doctor could arrive.

The 'mortuary' was nothing more than a shed and illustrations of it appear in many books on the case. Coroner Baxter would go on about how insufficient the premises were for work. Robert Mann was an inmate from the Working Lad's institute, so I don't see how he would have had the freedom to commit the murders.

There's literally nothing to suggest he was a murderer, let alone slippery Jack. It's all fiction as are the claims that 'two years' of intense investigation lured Trow to this conclusion. It's ridiculous.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[richardnunweek]

Hello Tom,
I agree entirely with you, last nights programme did indeed belong in the nineties, it was simply a case of naming a person that would have seen a couple of the victims during PM, and suggesting that mayby he could have had the mental state of the whitechapel Murderer.
Sheer Bunkum.
Now If he had named one Joseph Fleming, a former ex of the last victim of Jacks work, who rather strangely was pronounced insane just a few years later, now that would be well worthy of a TV Documentary.
But I have this thing about Josephs...
Regards Richard.

[Septic Blue]

I think it has to be said that - in the absence of any suggestion as to how he could have got out of the workhouse at night - he actually has an alibi for all the murders. I'm really not sure there's much point in discussing the other problems until that one has been dealt with.

"... it has to be said ..."

Indeed it does!

[ChrisGeorge]

I saw the programme and it is definitely a mortuary where Robert Mann worked as a mortuary assistant, not a shed.

What is shown in a TV program does not have to correspond to the reality of 1888. It should but it's a television documentary, after all, and some documentary makers do a better job than others. It wouldn't look sexy to show a shed. It would confuse the viewers who are used to CSI.

Chris