Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[Chris]

PS: if tonight's Ripper doc is the Freedie Mercury effort, I'm off out.

According to the Channel 5 website, it's a repeat, featuring Laura Richards and a "team of experts", so I think it is the same one.

[Graham]

I know virtually sweet f.a. about the Crippen Case, but put the following questions to anyone with a greater knowledge:

1] what length of time elapsed between the supposed date of Cora's demise and the discovery of the remains in the cellar?

2] I may be totally wrong here, but I've got a vague memory of another documentary years ago in which at least one of HH's neighbours on Hilldrop heard gunshots from his house. Is that true?

3] it was interesting to hear the DNA analyst suggest that the DNA of any person(s) handling the slide would be blanked out by the (more concentrated, if that's the correct term) DNA of the person whose bit of skin is on the slide. Is that a fact?

Regarding Insp Walter "Blue Serge" Dew, I have the distinct impression from elsewhere that he was not the most reliable of coppers. Some of his recorded memories of the Ripper Case aren't all that reliable. Not to suggest that he was a fabricator of evidence in the Crippen Case, but he does come across as something of a self-publicist and glory-seeker.

The documentary was OK as these things go, but do I HATE those stupid dumb-show dramatisations or whatever they're called!

Cheers,

Graham

PS: if tonight's Ripper doc is the Freedie Mercury effort, I'm off out.

[Debra A]

and her birth date is established using her marriage certificate to Crippen, which could very well have been incorrect since Cora was given to fabricating her name and age at the time of her marriage to Crippen.

Hi Jonathon,
The birth year given by Beth Wills is also backed up by Sir Richard Muir it seems. In a work published in 1926 from Muir's papers, his own notes are reproduced. Details on Cora are written and one entry says;

3 Sep. 1873. About 37 years of age

I presume the 3 Sep date to be her date of birth as it doesn't see to relate to any other part of the details and appears just as I have written it there.

[Sharon H]

I thought the programme was quite interesting although it did seem that the case for Crippen's "innocence" was pretty overstated. It could be said that on the state of the evidence available at the time that the conclusion of the jury was a sensible one. How we approach the case now with some new forensic techniques, when so much other highly potent forensic evidence will have long since been lost is a tricky one. Modern day techniques are far more sophisticated but not always cast-iron. It we transported ourselves back to the scene now, there may be more damning evidence against Crippen not less, because it's obvious that the cellar would be able to give up more of its secrets in the light of our existing knowledge, techniques and practices. I note that not everything from the cellar that does still exist was made available to these investigators - including the hair that was found.
Let's say for argument's sake that the jury did know that the remains were male - are they likely to have concluded it was all a big police fit up (juries don't often think like that now, for goodness sake!) or would they have looked at all the other compelling circumstantial evidence and said to themselves - the wife is missing, her body cannot be found, someone else's has been found in circumstances that suggest unlawful killing going on in Crippen's premises, he's legged it with the girlfriend in disguise and there's no evidence that the wife took any of her belongings when she suddenly "disappeared". Are they going to give Crippen the "benefit of the doubt"? I doubt it! The new evidence is going to have to go a lot further than this.

[jmenges]

Interesting.

In the Old Bailey it says Hunn's testimony was

Cross-examined. Belle Elmore was my full sister. Our father, who married twice, was a Pole.

While in the NTS (p.19) it says:

Mr. Mackamotski is my stepfather. I did not see that letter at my father's house before my sister brought it to my home.

Cross-Examined by Mr. Tobin- I am a full sister of Belle Elmore. My father's name was Mackamotzki.

By The Lord Chief Justice- My mother was twice married.

Cross examination continued- Mackamotzki was my sister's maiden name. My father was a Pole.


As if this clears anything up

JM

[jmenges]

Hi Chris,

I've little doubt that Cora was a member of the Mersinger family, its that no records exist of the marriage between Mary Wolffe and Joseph Mackamotzki, nor do any birth records exist for Cora Kunegunde Mackamotzki. Solid genealogical proof that Cora is the daughter of Mary Wolffe seems to be lacking. Whether Ms. Wills ran out of resources or just failed to locate the proper records is left unsaid.

In the Notable Trial Series, the statement of Theresa Hunn reads

I am the full sister of Belle Elmore[...] My mother was twice married.

I remember on the 15th of April this year my half-sister, Mrs. Mills, getting a letter from Dr. Crippen. My half-sister brought that letter to my house.

I'll take a look at the link you provided to see this apparent discrepancy.

Thanks

JM

[Chris]

On Beth Wills' qualifications and her genealogical study, I reprint below a document sent to me by Ms. Wills late last year.

Thanks for copying this interesting summary of the genealogical research.

It's a bit difficult to tell from the outline what the hard evidence is that the mother of Bertha (b. c. 1893), whose descendants' DNA was used, was the same person as the mother of Cora (b. c. 1873). In the UK it would be a simple matter of getting birth certificates for both of them. Perhaps it's not so easy for New York in the 1870s, but I'm not clear whether they have been looked for and not found, or whether the researcher lacked the resources to look for them.

The testimony of Cora's sister Teresa is online at the Old Bailey site:

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19101011-74&div=t19101011-74

One thing that perhaps should ring some alarm bells is this statement:
Belle Elmore was my full sister. Our father, who married twice, was a Pole.

I don't see how this fits in with that outline. Surely it needs to be clarified.

[Edit: Looking again at the outline, I suppose it may mean that Cora's elder brother Antoin was the son of Joseph Mackomatzki by an earlier wife - the Mary who appears in the censuses would have been only about 13 at the time of his birth. And I suppose some reassurance is provided by Teresa's description of Louise Mills [b. 1885 according to the outline] as her half sister.]

[jmenges]

Here are some of my impressions after watching the Channel 5 documentary.

After intorducing Trestrail, the first 15 mins are a brief and factual representation of events.

Not naming the genealogist, and Ms. Wills does not appear in the program. Nonetheless, they say: "A geneologist's search, lasting five years, finally revealed that Cora Crippen was born Kunegunde Mackamotzki".

Beth Wills seemingly could have saved five years and simply read page xiv of the introduction to the Notable Trial Series. The program made a mistake here. Beth Wills did not reveal that her name was Kunegunde Mackamotzki, this has been known for nearly 100 years.

Marie Hammil is described as a great-niece, she is actually a great-HALF-niece from her mother's second marriage. The other two samples, from Marie's sister and her daughter, are again misidentified as "grand-nieces". This misrepresents the nature of the genealogical research done, which was unable to locate full blood relatives of Cora Crippen.

Foran says he replicated the tests after a few weeks, and "started from scratch". This is the first we've heard that he repeated the tests. But wait! He says he "got new tissue" but fails to say that this new tissue was from the SAME sample from the SAME slide. The MSU lab was only given one slide.

When Trestrail says that Foran informed him "It's not her", this is a misrepresentation of what MtDNA testing concludes. This test is for exclusion purposes. The correct, scientifically accurate explanation of the test results should be "The half-nieces tested are excluded from being related to the remains in the grave." NOT that these remains are not Cora Crippen. There is a difference.

On the pardon sought by the Crippen descendant:

This pardon effort was not started by the surviving family of HH Crippen, but rather was spear-headed by Italian attorney Giovanni Di Stefano on 17 October, 2007. When asked about this, Mr. Foran, in an email sent to me on 30 October, 2007 says of the pardon effort "I have specifically and very plainly requested that any mention or inclusion of my name, my laboratory, or my University (Michigan State University, and their misspelling of it) be wholly omitted from that document, in that I in no way support or condone their efforts. I have made this very plain to Mr. Trestrail, and he has claimed to have made it plain to Mr. Di Stefano. I believe Ms. Wills also requested that her name be removed, but she can address that.
Certainly I did not in any manner give permission to be associated with Mr. Di Stefano, his website, or his scheme. The number of errors in that application, from the misnamed university to Mr. Trestrail's title, show what sloppy work Mr. Di Stefano conducts. Once again, neither I, my laboratory, my Departments, nor Michigan State University in any way support Mr. Di Stefano's efforts, and again request that mention of any of these, as well as any 'team' support for his efforts, through which I and the above are directly or indirectly implied, be fully removed from this and all further documents, releases, or statements." It seems that they've changed their opinion on this effort to grant Crippen a pardon.

Here is the link to the Pardon effort I was referring to:

http://www.studiolegaleinternazionale.com/news/ourNews/20071017Crippen.php4

In an effort to explain away the ordering of the poison, they suggest that Crippen was an abortionist, and the program refers to hyoscin as a "little known drug". This is not true. In fact, the pharmacist usually kept it in supply, but not in the large quantity Crippen wanted. Trestrail then says it was used in obstectrics and abortion procedures. He fails to mention that it was also used as a sedative for cases of delirium and mania, and also meningitis. Hyoscine was also used as a hypnotic to treat insomnia. It had no known homeopathic-remedy uses.

When Dr. Foran presents Trestrail with the 'It's a boy' moment, Trestrail asks if it could belong to the pathologist, Spilsbury. Foran says "No. We tested it and tested it." But this statement contradicts what Foran said earlier in the program that he dismissed (and we assume did not test) the possibility of contamination on the slide, saying that any amount of foreign DNA on the slide would be overwhelmed by the tissue's DNA.

That's all for now.

JM

[Kelly]

i have said just what the results said. until further testing theres no refuting, theres no confirming it just casts a doubt on the original evidence. as long as theres a pointer to the contrary theres a doubt. nothing has been proved.

With the amount of evidence that Cora's body was in that basement and Crippen put her there, to me this only casts doubt on the DNA test itself. Or perhaps the sample.

[joelhall]

no i do understand how science works very well.

this is not proof of anything, but it is an independent study which casts doubt on the original evidence. it cannot be proved or refuted without further testing.

so far the only scientific results have shown that the remains were male.

(why is everyone having such a hard time grasping this?)

its fine if people dont want to believe he was innocent/set up or whatever. fine. ok. thats not my point. frankly i dont know, nor do i really care either way. its really not for any of us to judge whether hes innocent or not. thats what a pardons committee will decide.

an independent analysis has cast doubt on the original evidence.

thats it. it happened. we saw it. it proves nothing, except a doubt. noone can show anything further until further tests are done to submit for a pardon.

it doesnt prove he is innocent or anything else for that matter.

this is obviously not all that needs to be done.

this does not prove the case was a fit up.

i have said just what the results said. until further testing theres no refuting, theres no confirming it just casts a doubt on the original evidence. as long as theres a pointer to the contrary theres a doubt. nothing has been proved.

[Kelly]

Thanks for posting this, Jonathan (and I enjoyed your article on this in RN). I think this woman is a bit confused to think that ideas can be copyrighted, but she seems a bit odd to begin with (admitting her own cockiness, for one).

I'm a bit confused. Is "Concardia" supposed to be Cora? We go quickly from a statement that she was born Cora Kunegunde Mackamotzki to a census listing a family with a different father, and a daughter named Concardia that is Cora's approximate age.

Are we positive we're looking at the right family?

[Dan Norder]

testing done showed that the remains were male. there is no scientific analysis as yet to refute this.

I think you fail to understand how science works. One test on one object (and especially one performed by people who have a demonstrated bias) does not a scientific finding make. An inherent and essential part of the scientific process is independent verification. These results have not been verified, so right now they have just as much scientific validity as some random guy off the street arguing that Abraham Lincoln was a black man wearing white make up and that's why he wanted to set the slaves free has historical validity.

If all it took was one group sending out press releases announcing an amazing discovery that contradicts all known existing evidence to make something science, then cold fusion would be real, there'd be a giant monument of an alien face on Mars, overdosing on Vitamin C would cure cancer, and so forth and so on.

[jmenges]

On Beth Wills' qualifications and her genealogical study, I reprint below a document sent to me by Ms. Wills late last year.

Note how she describes herself as a hobbiest, not a professional, and note also that the link she establishes for Cora Crippen's birth parents is done through census records only, not a birth certificate or anything that proves parentage, and her birth date is established using her marriage certificate to Crippen, which could very well have been incorrect since Cora was given to fabricating her name and age at the time of her marriage to Crippen. She refuses to provide evidence of her work, or even a detailed family tree, saying: "I do not want to just put everything that I have "out there" for anyone who wants it to have and to claim as their own.* This document is a condensed version of my research and the details that I am willing to "give" at this time.* I feel that if anyone needs more information, or doubts the results of my research that they certainly are fee to do any research that they want on their own dime."
***

The Search For A Living Female Descendant of Cora Crippen

Prepared by Beth Erskine Wills 2007

John Trestrail was speaking to me one day of the case and stated “if we could just find a living, female descendant of Cora, we could do mitochondrial DNA testing to see if it’s really her!”
I replied to him with a bit of cockiness in my voice, “I could do that, that shouldn’t be that hard”. He looked at me and grinned. His reply, “Do it!”

I did this research essentially, on a dare from John Trestrail who had been studying the case for a number of years. I did not do this in an attempt to right a terrible wrong or as an attempt to exonerate Dr. H. H. Crippen for the murder/mutilation of his wife, Cora. *It was a challenge. I did it to prove to John and to myself that I could!* When I started the search for a living female descendant of Cora Crippen, I didn't have the foggiest idea of who she was and why anyone would want to research her family.

I am not sure to whom I want to "give" my actual research !* I am not, nor do I profess to be, a professional genealogist.* I am a hobby genealogist that has taken a few courses in Family History Research.* I have been working on my own family history for years and the principals of doing this kind of research should be the same regardless of whose family you are researching.

I spent the majority of my spare time over 7 years doing the research on Cora’s family. I formulated a plan by making an outline of any and all public records that might be available during the time that Cora would have been growing up and part of a family unit. For each of these potential records, I listed the repository that may actually hold the record. With this “road map” in hand, I began to actually search out these records.

I made numerous trips to various Family History Libraries to view microfilm, I sat at microfilm viewers at the Michigan State Archives for hours at a time, I also used my home computer, scouring the internet for any mention of the surname(s) and talking on the telephone to those that I came across by the name of Mersinger, Marsinger, Marsanger, etc. I posted message after message on genealogy websites and I read everything that I could find that had been published on the case. I joined a number of online genealogy websites and paid for subscriptions in order to have access to their collections of indexes and actual documents. I even did some sewing for a lady in New York that had access to the Catholic Church records of the diocese in exchange for some research. I did research in Michigan in trade for individuals doing research for local records in New York. And, I did all of this research at my own expense.*

I do not have a lot of fancy degrees and I am not educated in copyright law, but it seems to me that if someone can hold an intellectual copyright on an idea or the rough draft of a manuscript, that I might also be able to say that I own my own research. The probability of me recouping what I have invested in this project is slim to none.* But, I do not want to just put everything that I have "out there" for anyone who wants it to have and to claim as their own.* I have prepared this "statement" that is a synopsis of my research journey. This document is a condensed version of my research and the details that I am willing to "give" at this time.* I feel that if anyone needs more information, or doubts the results of my research that they certainly are fee to do any research that they want on their own dime.

Part of me wishes that when John said "If only we could locate living female descendants of Cora" that I would have responded with something more along the lines of “Good luck and have fun!”

We know from the writings of Cullen, Tom, The Mild Murderer (Houghton Mifflin Company - Boston 1977) that Cora had “female surgery” at a very young age and did not bear any children of her own.

Therefore, my search for a living female descendent needed to be done by going BACK one generation, for a living female descendant of Cora’s mother, and then working my way forward down the female lines.

Cora Crippen was born Cora Kunegunde Mackamotzki in 1873. She was the daughter of Joseph Mackamotski and Mary (Maria) Wolffe. Great-great granddaughter Frances is in possession of a letter written to Mary from her family in Russia.

The date of Cora’s birth is calculated from the fact that she lists herself as 19 years old on her marriage license to H. H. Crippen in July of 1892. (a copy of this marriage license is in my possession)

We also know from Cullen’s book, that Cora and her family were at one time from the Brooklyn, New York area.

Cora would have been 7 years old for the 1880 Federal Census, and 17 years old for the 1890 Federal Census. The 1900 Federal Census would have been taken after Cora married H. H. Crippen.

My search for the family began by reading the 1880 Federal census records on microfilm for the Brooklyn, New York enumeration districts. In 1880, we find the mother Mary has married Frederick Mersinger and an additional child has been added to the family. We do not have a definitive answer for what happened to Joseph Mackamotski, although previous writings on the subject state that Joseph died “when Cora was 2”. This would make a date of death for Joseph of about 1875.

All of the children are using the Mersinger surname for the 1880 Census. The three children of Mary’s from her marriage to Joseph as well as a 2-year-old daughter Katie are found in the 1880 Census returns.

This census shows the family of Frederic Mersinger, his wife Mary and their children.

Frederic is male, age 32, born in Baden
Mary, wife age 26, born in NY
Antoin son, age 13 born NY
Concardia daughter, age 7 born NY
Theresa daughter, age 4 born NY
Katie daughter, age 2 born NY

1880 Census - Kings, New York
Film T 765-121
Soundex M 620 P - M630 L
Vol 33, E. D. 129
Sheet 51, Line 7, Union Avenue, House # 154


In looking at the female lines of the half-siblings of Cora, who have a common mother and thus the same mDNA we find:

Theresa, Cora’s only full sister, was married to Sigmund Huhn, but there is reference to only one child and that child is a male. I did speak with Theresa’s great granddaughter – Barbara Skirtun. While she is not from the female line, she is very interested in the case and did have some memory of the case.

Theresa tesified at HH's trial in London, in an attempt to prevent Ethel from inheriting any of HH’s property. At the time of the trial (1910), she (Theresa) was married and living on Locust Ave. in Long Island, New York. She was married before 1900 as she is found with the family in the 1880 census but not in the 1900 census.

Antoin – died young. In one letter written by Cora to her sister, she lamented that she wished dear Annie and her mother were still alive.

Katie – was married to George Volkens, but had only male issue. According to the memories of Ellen Volkens-Stanton (granddaughter), Kate was institutionalized with mental illness after the birth of her last child. George raised the boys on his own. He died in 1959 in New York.

By 1900, we find the family has grown to include
Frederick, Louisa, Julius, Bertha and John. Frederick was born in 1882, Louisa in 1885 and Julius in 1888, Bertha in 1893 and John 1895.


1900 Federal Census - Queens, New York
Microfilm Roll T 1062-495
Soundex M-625 Floyd - M626 Anna
Vol 215, E. D. 646, Sheet 2, Line 15
County Queens


I have in my possession, copies of letters written by one Millie Mersinger. Millie died in a nursing home of Parkinson’s disease. Millie spoke with cousin Frances of her memories of the murder of Cora. Millie was the daughter of Frederick and Mary’s son, Frederick.
Frances, the daughter of John (1895), granddaughter of John (1917).

Another son of Frederick, also named Frederick was alive and well in 2003, living in Anchorage, Alaska. He is very sharp witted but extremely hard of hearing and with failing sight. The fact that this man is severely hard of hearing made a telephone conversation impossibe. I did speak to his daughter Bonnie Mersinger Carroll – who also lives in Anchorage - Fred vividly remembers the details of the murder and has some pictures of Cora in her stage costume!

Louisa was married to Robert Mills after 1900. No information has been found of the one child known. This child was born about 1910.

Bertha, born in March of 1893 is the line that we follow to the living female descendants. Bertha married Arthur Baum. Bertha and Arthur had a daughter, Lucy (Louise) was born in 1912. She died in 1973. Lucy, who married Felix Santangelo had 4 children. Cell samples were taken from these daughters ( and one granddaughter) for the project.

Many of the Mersinger family members shared information with me. Some had heard of the “murder” but the facts were not discussed by the family. Others of the Mersinger family, particularly descendants of the male lines of the family were very helpful in helping me to locate other members of the family.

==================================================
Cora’s stage name was Belle Elmore. Interestingly enough, in the 1920 census in New York, we find a female with the same name as Cora’s younger half-sister Bertha Mersinger, living with a “cousin” by the name of Belle Rose. This Belle is the same age that Cora would have been in 1920, gives her occupation as a SINGER and is found entering the US through Ellis Island from Bermuda in August of 1910.

She is listed as a US citizen, but does not give her home address. I have not been able to find anything more about “Belle Rose”. In addition, she is listed as entering the country traveling with a gentleman by the name of Dr. Louis D. Ray. This Dr. Ray is also an elusive gentleman. I have not found any further information on him.

Mr. Patrick Crippen – a descendant of H. H. Crippen has informed me by email that his studies of the August 15, 1910 manifest of the ship - Bermudian – finds Belle Rose on line 0008 and Louis Ray on Line 0009. But, also notices that line 0010 showed Isoline Ray, who is about the same age as Louis Ray. Both Rays list themselves as married.

It is possible that in my original observations of this manifest, that I did not see the reference to Isoline Ray on the line following Louis.

This is something that will need further study; study that I am not able, due to financial constraints as well as work and family obligations, to carry out at this time.
==================================================

A large number of supporting documents; birth records, death records, marriage records, burial records, newspaper obituaries and photographs with notation are in my possession.

[jmenges]

but how could scarring show surgical skill of the killer? this makes no sense.

No it doesn't, because you are confused. The piece of skin that contained the scar from Cora's surgery (in life) was found in the grave. The abdominal scar was not made by the killer.

Ash,

Thanks for the review. I'll be able to post my comments on the television show tomorrow, although some of the points you raised are addressed in a post of mine above re: the qualifications (or lack there of) of Beth Wills.

JM

[Jeff Leahy]

My full review is on Ripper Notes Extra now. (link in the sig.)

Hi Ash

Many thanks for that link. Excellent stuff. I am a little aware of the case having put a proposal forward on the subject a few years ago. I was just wondering if you new who had made this program?

Yours Jeff