Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[Chris]

In my email exchange with her yesterday I pointed out some of the questions raised and discrepancies discovered (Antoin & Belle Rose), I linked to the thread at place of the Belle Rose census record, and in her reply she expressed in no uncertain terms, one might even say rudely, her intention to completely avoid participating in this discussion.

That's a shame, but if people come out with controversial claims, they can't be surprised if the evidence is scrutinised rigorously. And I think if they refuse to reveal the evidence, and it later turns out to be flawed, then they can't expect an easy ride.

It's not as though Trestrail has scrupled to accuse Walter Dew of sending an innocent man to the gallows by faking evidence. I don't think this kind of thing is just a bit of innocent fun.

[jmenges]

It's not as though Trestrail has scrupled to accuse Walter Dew of sending an innocent man to the gallows by faking evidence. I don't think this kind of thing is just a bit of innocent fun.

Of course I agree.

I asked Beth Wills why she did not participate, nor was even named, as the person responsible for the genealogy in the recent television program (thinking there might have been a rift) but alas, she did not answer that question.

JM

[Ally]

Maybe as part of her pay-off she signed a contract ordering her not to speak.

Which is unfortunate because she's going to be the one to get the bulk of the blame for this shoddy deception whether it was in fact her falsification or not.


And extremely interesting that your email address has been banned from the Crippen site. What do you want to bet there's a big ole lawsuit planned with the descendants all angling for a big cash pay-out from the guv'ment.

God spare us from deceitful, dishonest little shites like these and all the people on their payroll.

[Mike Covell]

And as a humorous aside, I discovered a few days ago when I attempted to register on the Crippen family genealogy site, my email address had already been banned.



JM

Thats the type of thing that happens to me!
I get spam from all sorts of sites stating I am no longer welcome!

[Debra A]

That's unfortunate Jonathon. I am afraid in my mind at least that takes this business out of the "simple human error" category and places it rather firmly in "deliberate deception".

A shame. I do hope Debs you contact the major media outlets who are blaring the inaccurate "research" and inform them of your findings. It would be a shame of this fraud kept getting trumpeted as fact.

I was prepared to accept "simple human error" Ally, but now I'm not so sure, although deliberate deception is a bit strong for me (wimp that I am )



I read in the Camden news journal from Dec 2007 that "Trestrail is also on the lookout for a genealogist to discover Cora Crippen’s fate, after Beth Wills unearthed intriguing clues in the 1920 US census." So Wills is totally disassociating herself from all this it seems. Anyway, Jonathon and I have probably saved him some trouble. Jonathon's come up with a possible identification of the Belle Rose from the 1920 census and I've been able to locate the woman he gave me details of in the 1930 census, and a lot of her details fit. I'm going to check it out more thoroughly when I get more time .

I just watched the Channel 5 programme again on Demand five on the internet and caught the male DNA bit that I missed last time.

Very technical wasn't it?!
"positively female?"
"no because you have 2 lines, this is an x and this is a y, means it's male"

I mentioned athletic femininity certificates in a much earlier post and have since been doing a bit of reading on the subject of CAIS...females with a y chromosome for anyone that thinks that having a y chromosome makes you a male. Interesting reading. I'm not saying this is the case here BTW. I have a very basic knowledge of DNA and gender testing techniques....but was just wondering...

[Debra A]

I have now been in touch with both Beth Wills and Dr. Foran.
Both replied to my emails, Dr Foran saying that he no longer wishes to answer Mr Menge's (?!) questions and suggesting we hire someone to do our own tests.
Beth Wills replied that she has moved on and doesn't want to comment any further. She obviously had not read this thread as when I mentioned the Belle Rose issue she suggested I go and look up these records for myself....

So, the show's over for them as far as they are concerned, they've had their 15 mins of fame and 'moved on,' never mind that Cora Crippen has ultimately become the guilty party in all this by letting an innocent man be hanged for her murder.

[jmenges]

It should be noted that Debs did not even mention my name in her email to Dr. Foran.

Now, moving on. Our style.

The woman that the Michigan State University group is positing as Belle Elmore, a woman named Belle Rose, has been cited in nearly every media and blog account on this subject.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article4244448.ece

And the below quote from Trestrail

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/oct/17/ukcrime.science

Ten years after the trial, a singer with a similar name was registered as living with Cora's sister in New York. Records show that the same woman entered the US through Ellis Island from Bermuda in 1910 shortly after Mrs Crippen disappeared.

"Are Belle Rose and Cora Crippen one and the same?" asked Mr Trestrail. "We can't prove any of that - that is another investigation".

Well, a 2 minute search on the New York Times archives may prove that Belle Rose is definitely not Cora Crippen.

Cora Crippen was Catholic. So much so that HH Crippen had to convert to Catholicism in order to marry her.

This Belle Rose was Jewish. Very much so. She went on to marry a man named Hecht and gave generously to her local Synagogue in Forest Hills, Queens. Their son continued to make donations in his parents name to the same synagogue well after his parents were deceased.

This research is ongoing, but from what I have heard (Debs, correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't want to be accused of being untruthful), the data seems to match up. Pointing to a Pennsylvania/Jewish origin for Belle Rose, and not a New York/Catholic one, as was the case of Cora Crippen.

It should also be mentioned that the researchers at MSU made no effort to locate any artifact known to exist belonging to Cora Crippen that may have contained her DNA (like licked stamps, for instance). Nor did they make any attempt to get even a single strand of the hair found with her curlers in the grave. Hair which still exists and responds much better to mtDNA testing than tissue. Either one of these things could, and in my opinion should, have been tested against both the tissue slide from the Royal London Hospital Museum and the "descendants" identified by Beth Wills.

If the hair in the Black Museum was tested and shown to match DNA from a stamp, then the team from MSU could have left these descendants alone. as it would get as close as you can to proving or disproving that it was Cora Crippen's remains.

JM

[Robert]

Take care of that name, JM. It'll be "Mengele" before you know it.

[Chris]

It should also be mentioned that the researchers at MSU made no effort to locate any artifact known to exist belonging to Cora Crippen that may have contained her DNA (like licked stamps, for instance). Nor did they make any attempt to get even a single strand of the hair found with her curlers in the grave.

That's strange, because I noted a reference in the TV documentary to a request - either already made or to be made - to do DNA testing on the hair and cloth found in the grave. I couldn't quite fathom what DNA testing of the cloth would show ...

[Debra A]

Well, a 2 minute search on the New York Times archives may prove that Belle Rose is definitely not Cora Crippen.

Cora Crippen was Catholic. So much so that HH Crippen had to convert to Catholicism in order to marry her.

This Belle Rose was Jewish. Very much so. She went on to marry a man named Hecht and gave generously to her local Synagogue in Forest Hills, Queens. Their son continued to make donations in his parents name to the same synagogue well after his parents were deceased.

This research is ongoing, but from what I have heard (Debs, correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't want to be accused of being untruthful), the data seems to match up. Pointing to a Pennsylvania/Jewish origin for Belle Rose, and not a New York/Catholic one, as was the case of Cora Crippen.

From what I have researched so far Jonathon, this is looking like a very good match. Both the 1920 Belle Rose and the 1930 Belle Hecht match up on most counts, both being born in Pennsylvania, of German Parentage. The age is out by 3 years. The 1920 Belle Rose is the only woman who comes anywhere near a match to Belle Hecht. I'm still working on it however so can't say for definite as yet.

It should also be mentioned that the researchers at MSU made no effort to locate any artifact known to exist belonging to Cora Crippen that may have contained her DNA (like licked stamps, for instance). Nor did they make any attempt to get even a single strand of the hair found with her curlers in the grave. Hair which still exists and responds much better to mtDNA testing than tissue. Either one of these things could, and in my opinion should, have been tested against both the tissue slide from the Royal London Hospital Museum and the "descendants" identified by Beth Wills.

I read here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-evidence.html

that According to Mr Trestrail, the Yard offered to do a test on two strands of hair for £17,500.

[jmenges]

I read here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-evidence.html

that According to Mr Trestrail, the Yard offered to do a test on two strands of hair for £17,500.

Hmmm. When I wrote to Dr. Foran about finding alternate sources of Cora's DNA (though I specifically mentioned stamps) he replied "If other materials exist, we would be happy to test them."

He made no mention to me of having inquired about testing the hair.

For what that's worth...

JM

[Debra A]

Maybe they didn't trust 'the Yard' to come up with the results they wanted....beg your pardon... accurate results. That reference, if true, sounds like 'the Yard' wanted to do the tests themselves? Maybe it was a money issue? The quote is supposedly by Mr.Trestrail so maybe Dr Foran wasn't involved in the sourcing of samples of DNA for analysis?


Has anyone ever left a comment on the Times online pages? I posted two comments a few days ago at the end of the Roger Graef article on Crippen and neither has materialised yet.

[jmenges]

Dr. Foran describes the negotiations to obtain the slides as an arrangement that he, not Trestrail, conducted with the Royal London Hospital. Maybe Trestrail did ask Scotland Yard to test the hair, and after hearing the price tag, decided the cheaper route would be in Michigan with Dr. Foran and slides of skin.

It would have put a different spin on it though if the hair was what they had tested. Imagine them testing two long strands of brown hair that had been bleached blonde, and then claiming it came from a male.

I've not commented on any paper's article about this subject, but I'll keep my eye out for your posts on the Times.

JM

[Chris]

Has anyone ever left a comment on the Times online pages? I posted two comments a few days ago at the end of the Roger Graef article on Crippen and neither has materialised yet.

I tried to post a link to the information you'd posted here, but it didn't appear. I wonder whether it would be worth your contacting David Aaronovitch, who wrote an article ending:
It will have to do until the Five evidence is debunked. As I absolutely predict it will be.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article4244448.ece

[Debra A]

Here is final proof positive that the Bertha Mersinger on the 1920 New York census cousin to Belle Rose, is not the sister of Cora Crippen and the Bertha Smith I found in 1920 is.

This information was given to Jonathon by Beth Wills, and is about Bertha Mersinger's family:

Bertha, born in March of 1893 is the line that we follow to the living female descendants. Bertha married Arthur Baum. Bertha and Arthur had a daughter, Lucy (Louise) was born in 1912. She died in 1973. Lucy, who married Felix Santangelo had 4 children. Cell samples were taken from these daughters ( and one granddaughter) for the project

I then posted the following information:

According to the online family tree, Bertha married two men, Arthur Baum and then William Smith (no sources given). The child Lucy (Louise), mentioned by Beth Wills (Lucy Louise Baum Smith in the family tree) is strangely listed as a child from both marriages and was born in 1912.
In the 1920 New York census I found a Louise Smith aged 7 living with her parents William and Bertha Smith. Bertha's age is 26, she was born in New York. Her father's place of birth is given as Germany and her mother's place of birth is given as New York.....it seems to fit what is known of Bertha Mersinger and the details given by the family.
Other children on the census are Bertha and Anna, and these children also appear in the family tree.

I have now traced two of the children of the above Bertha and William Smith in the 1930 New York census.
Bertha Smith aged 16 and Anna Smith aged 14 both appear as 'orphan lodgers' living with Robert Mills (a soapmaker) and his wife Louise.

...those names should ring a bell from one of Crippen's letters.
Louise Mills nee Mersinger was Cora's half sister.

Here is a story link from the New York Times of July 15, 1910

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A06E4DC1239E433A25756C1A9619C946196D6CF

Frederick Mersinger and Louise Mills talking about the family.
Frederick says Cora's mother died 6 years ago, that means c 1904 which fits with the death entry I found in the New York indexes for a Mary Mersinger.