Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[Debra A]

I had no luck in 1870 either. I have access to Brooklyn trade directories up to 1885 and I can't find a mention of the name Mackamotzki or anything similar, I believe Joseph Mackamotzki was supposedly a grocer in Brooklyn? (I may have that wrong because I can't remember where I originally read it)

[Robert]

Hi all

I haven't read this thread because I'm not much into Crippen, but some of the people you're discussing are on this site.

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:MqYEtmLa0cQJ:familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/h/i/Kim-A-Philhower/PDFBOOK1.pdf+mackamotzki&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk

It has an Antonio listed as a half great aunt, so more sexual confusion I'm afraid.

[Debra A]

Odd one that Robert. It looks like 'of the wife' could have been one of the DNA participants?
Cora's great grandparents are said to have been married in Whitechapel too.

Just some Crippen trivia here , I noticed that in Aug 1898 when Crippen was managing Munyon's London empire, and had to defend the firm against swindling claims ( he raised many laughs in the court when giving evidence too for some reason!) Munyon's went all out in damage limiting advertising after Aug, and in November of the same year, an article appeared in Bristol Mercury and Daily post on the 'Lost art of poisoning' according to an eminent authority, the art of poisoning was a lost one...followed ironically by an advert of Munyon's, who's manager was still Crippen.

[jmenges]

Thanks all for looking into this stuff. Fascinating, yet still puzzling! The census records on Cora's sex being altered was an especially humorous coincidence.

Cullen refers to Joe Mackamotzki when describing him as a Polish grocer, saying he kept a fruit stand in Brooklyn. Keep that in mind when looking in trade directories, it may not list street-side fruit vendors.

I'd be interested in the stove manufacturer Mr. Lincoln. Also in Brooklyn. A married man who nevertheless paid rent on a flat for Belle and paid for her singing lessons. She was living on Mr. Lincoln's dime when she met Crippen in July of 1892.

Cullen shares with us a little information about Belle's childhood with the Mersingers. All of it unsourced. He says that 'Fritz' Mersinger taught her to play numerous musical instruments (such as the Zither) and took her to the opera. An experience that sparked her musical obsession. He also informs us that she had five half-brothers and sisters.

JM

[Debra A]

Thanks all for looking into this stuff. Fascinating, yet still puzzling! The census records on Cora's sex being altered was an especially humorous coincidence.

Cullen refers to Joe Mackamotzki when describing him as a Polish grocer, saying he kept a fruit stand in Brooklyn. Keep that in mind when looking in trade directories, it may not list street-side fruit vendors.

I'd be interested in the stove manufacturer Mr. Lincoln. Also in Brooklyn. A married man who nevertheless paid rent on a flat for Belle and paid for her singing lessons. She was living on Mr. Lincoln's dime when she met Crippen in July of 1892.

Cullen shares with us a little information about Belle's childhood with the Mersingers. All of it unsourced. He says that 'Fritz' Mersinger taught her to play numerous musical instruments (such as the Zither) and took her to the opera. An experience that sparked her musical obsession. He also informs us that she had five half-brothers and sisters.

JM

You got me hooked on this Jonathon! Mention a surgical skill dismemberment and I'm there

No Lincoln stove maufacturers that I can see.


A very puzzling aspect is the fact that Antoin Marsenger was b c 1868...when his mother Mary was 14? But yet by 1900 Mary is claiming her birthdate to be many years later, a mother at 10? but yet Antoin cannot be an earlier son of Frederic Marsenger as he gives his birthplace as New York, before the date Fred Marsenger says he arrived in the country???!

Anyway, about the surgical skill thing...was Crippen a real doctor?...

[Chris]

A very puzzling aspect is the fact that Antoin Marsenger was b c 1868...when his mother Mary was 14? But yet by 1900 Mary is claiming her birthdate to be many years later, a mother at 10? but yet Antoin cannot be an earlier son of Frederic Marsenger as he gives his birthplace as New York, before the date Fred Marsenger says he arrived in the country???!

So there's a discrepancy between the ages given for Mary in the 1880 and 1900 censuses? It's not possible that Marsinger/Mersinger could have married two different women named Mary, is it? (Stranger things have happened). That might be one explanation for the difference in the mitochondrial DNA.

And maybe I've missed it, but has the family been found in the 1890 census?

[jmenges]

He was a real doctor by 19th century standards in as much as the University of Michigan had a School of Homoeopathic Medicine where Crippen attended classes, but he obtained his M.D. at the Homoeopathic College in Cleveland, Ohio. After getting his M.D. in homoeopathic medicine, he interned as an eye and ear specialist at Hahnemann Hospital in Manhattan, where he met his first wife. In between the University of Michigan and getting his M.D. in Cleveland, he spent a year in London (1883) studying mental disorders at the Royal Bethlehem Hospital. This is where it is believed he attended courses on post-mortem dissection (see Supper with the Crippens by David James Smith) . As he would say at trial, "I went through a theoretical course of surgery. I have never gone through a practical course of surgery, and I have never performed a post-mortem examination in my life."

JM

edit- It was also at Bedlam that he learned of the existence and properties of hyoscin, ten years before the sudden death of his first wife.

[Debra A]

So there's a discrepancy between the ages given for Mary in the 1880 and 1900 censuses? It's not possible that Marsinger/Mersinger could have married two different women named Mary, is it? (Stranger things have happened). That might be one explanation for the difference in the mitochondrial DNA.

And maybe I've missed it, but has the family been found in the 1890 census?

There is Chris.
...no it isn't...much stranger things have happened!
Still doesn't explain the male DNA thing though....unless...therewas confusion about Cora's gender? There are a few shades inbetween I believe.

1890 US census is sparodic at best I think.

[Debra A]

He was a real doctor by 19th century standards in as much as the University of Michigan had a School of Homoeopathic Medicine where Crippen attended classes, but he obtained his M.D. at the Homoeopathic College in Cleveland, Ohio. After getting his M.D. in homoeopathic medicine, he interned as an eye and ear specialist at Hahnemann Hospital in Manhattan, where he met his first wife. In between the University of Michigan and getting his M.D. in Cleveland, he spent a year in London (1883) studying mental disorders at the Royal Bethlehem Hospital. This is where it is believed he attended courses on post-mortem dissection (see Supper with the Crippens by David James Smith) . As he would say at trial, "I went through a theoretical course of surgery. I have never gone through a practical course of surgery, and I have never performed a post-mortem examination in my life."

JM

edit- It was also at Bedlam that he learned of the existence and properties of hyoscin, ten years before the sudden death of his first wife.

Thanks Jonathon, Just that in the 1898 case I mentioned earlier. when asked if he was a 'real doctor' It looks like Crippen stated that 'he never had said he was.' But the testimonies are so confusing, it could be the quack who was on trial who said that.

[jmenges]

Thanks Jonathon, Just that in the 1898 case I mentioned earlier. when asked if he was a 'real doctor' It looks like Crippen stated that 'he never had said he was.' But the testimonies are so confusing, it could be the quack who was on trial who said that.

I've only read the Times' (of London) story about this case. It mentions Crippen but only in passing. Do you have another link?

I long ago returned Supper with the Crippens, looks like I'll be re-ordering it! I had no idea that this case would rear its ugly head again.

JM

[Chris]

Debra

So, just for the sake of argument, we could put up an alternative hypothesis to explain the difference between the DNA from the body and the DNA of the descendants of Cora's "sister" Bertha - we could suggest that Cora's mother, Mary Wolff, died some time after the birth of Louisa (c. 1885), and that some time before the birth of Bertha (c. 1893), Cora's stepfather married a younger woman, also named Mary. In that case, Cora and Bertha would be only stepsisters, with no blood relationship.

I agree the finding that the remains were male would make all this genealogy academic. But it would be nice to hear an expert opinion on that. The implication of the TV documentary seemed to be that the sex of the remains couldn't be determined by conventional means, so this new, ultra-sensitive technique had to be used. But perhaps it's also ultra-sensitive to contamination?

[jmenges]

This would back up Crippen's statement to Dew that Cora's mother had been dead "some years" prior to 1893.

Two Marys.

JM

[Debra A]

I've only read the Times' (of London) story about this case. It mentions Crippen but only in passing. Do you have another link?

I long ago returned Supper with the Crippens, looks like I'll be re-ordering it! I had no idea that this case would rear its ugly head again.

JM

Jon, I transcribed this section from Cardiff Western Mail Monday Sept 26 1898
I assume that the answers to the judge's questions are being provided by Crippen, although these court reports are never clear enough.

...Hawley Harvey Crippen, London manager for professor Munyon, in whose absence he had full control, said Mr. Munyon engaged "Doctor" Deane.
The judge: You call him "doctor." What are his qualifications?- I don't know. (Laughter.)
Witness added that the accused was under him, and commenced with a weekly wage of £1, increased subsequently first to £5 and then to £6. What instructions Mr. Munyon gave prisoner he did not know.
When did the professor last leave for America?-In May.
At that time did you know that the Medical Council were taking a special interest in Munyon?-They were taking a special interest in Dr. H---
What university has the honour of Professor Munyon?- He has an honorary degree from the University of Tennessee.
You are called "doctor" You are not qualified?-I don't pretend to be.You can't get a qualified man to take on the position in London?-I beg your pardon, I can get half a dozen
reputable doctors.
One has been struck off for occupying that position?-He has sir....

Chris, maybe, there is certainly something odd about the whole thing. I noticed that the online family trees compiled by descendants give Mary Wolffe's DOB as May 1858, taken directly from the 1900 census. No explanation seems to be given of the discrepancy beteen this and the oldest child Antoin's DOB of 1867.
When the 1900 Mary Mersinger states that she is the mother of 10 children, 9of them still living I suppose she could be including step children?
Just to correct something I posted earlier. Frederic Mersinger gives his date of entry into the US as 1871, not 1876 as I stated before (1876 is the marriage year) Antoin was born c 1867 in New York.


Athletic, 'femininity certificates' spring to mind here with the ydna question.

[Chris]

Chris, maybe, there is certainly something odd about the whole thing. I noticed that the online family trees compiled by descendants give Mary Wolffe's DOB as May 1858, taken directly from the 1900 census. No explanation seems to be given of the discrepancy beteen this and the oldest child Antoin's DOB of 1867.
When the 1900 Mary Mersinger states that she is the mother of 10 children, 9of them still living I suppose she could be including step children?

It's difficult, isn't it? That does seem to fit with the same Mary being the mother of all the children mentioned in the 1880 and 1900 censuses.

But on the other hand, a hypothetical second wife Mary could herself have had children from a previous marriage. If she married Joseph c. 1886 (say), those children could have left home by 1900. The chronology does seem a bit of a squeeze, though, particularly if she was born in 1858.

[Maria]

[QUOTE=Ash;27652]It was an interesting program. I'm going to put a review on the Ripper Notes Extra site in the next day or two. They brought up a lot of good points, but steered entirely clear of the huge elephant in the room, that being that if Cora was still alive, why didn't she just say "um, no, he didn't murder me actually, here I am!"

I did see the programme as well. I understand that the living family of Dr. Crippen are trying to get him cleared of the charges of having killed Cora. At the beginning on another show, they were saying that the corpse was that of a back-street abortion that Dr. Crippen performed and that the girl had died and he buried her under the cellar. Now, they are saying that it has the DNA of a man and not a woman. When asked where Cora is, then they say that she was so wicked she allowed everyone to think Crippen had killed her.

Apparently now they are claiming the corpse that Sir Bernard examined had the DNA of a man and not a woman, so they are saying it could not be Cora´s but then, one has to wonder who was this other victim ? and what was it doing being buried in Crippen´s cellar ? Don´t tell me... the police killed someone else to frame Crippen.

-Maria Spilsbury