Crippen Documentary 1 July 2008

[Debra A]

and her birth date is established using her marriage certificate to Crippen, which could very well have been incorrect since Cora was given to fabricating her name and age at the time of her marriage to Crippen.

Hi Jonathon,
The birth year given by Beth Wills is also backed up by Sir Richard Muir it seems. In a work published in 1926 from Muir's papers, his own notes are reproduced. Details on Cora are written and one entry says;

3 Sep. 1873. About 37 years of age

I presume the 3 Sep date to be her date of birth as it doesn't see to relate to any other part of the details and appears just as I have written it there.

[Graham]

I know virtually sweet f.a. about the Crippen Case, but put the following questions to anyone with a greater knowledge:

1] what length of time elapsed between the supposed date of Cora's demise and the discovery of the remains in the cellar?

2] I may be totally wrong here, but I've got a vague memory of another documentary years ago in which at least one of HH's neighbours on Hilldrop heard gunshots from his house. Is that true?

3] it was interesting to hear the DNA analyst suggest that the DNA of any person(s) handling the slide would be blanked out by the (more concentrated, if that's the correct term) DNA of the person whose bit of skin is on the slide. Is that a fact?

Regarding Insp Walter "Blue Serge" Dew, I have the distinct impression from elsewhere that he was not the most reliable of coppers. Some of his recorded memories of the Ripper Case aren't all that reliable. Not to suggest that he was a fabricator of evidence in the Crippen Case, but he does come across as something of a self-publicist and glory-seeker.

The documentary was OK as these things go, but do I HATE those stupid dumb-show dramatisations or whatever they're called!

Cheers,

Graham

PS: if tonight's Ripper doc is the Freedie Mercury effort, I'm off out.

[Chris]

PS: if tonight's Ripper doc is the Freedie Mercury effort, I'm off out.

According to the Channel 5 website, it's a repeat, featuring Laura Richards and a "team of experts", so I think it is the same one.

[jmenges]

Hi Jonathon,
The birth year given by Beth Wills is also backed up by Sir Richard Muir it seems. In a work published in 1926 from Muir's papers, his own notes are reproduced. Details on Cora are written and one entry says;

3 Sep. 1873. About 37 years of age

I presume the 3 Sep date to be her date of birth as it doesn't see to relate to any other part of the details and appears just as I have written it there.

Hi Debs,

Although Cora's birthdate does not appear on the marriage certificate, everything else that appears about her on the document is supposedly in error.

She gives her name as Corrine Romney (sp?) Turner, she says her father's name was Joseph Turner and says both of her parents were born in the United States. She gives her age as 19 and the certificate is dated Sept. 1, 1892. So, if her birthday was indeed Sept 3, then this too is incorrect (if only for two days).

I do not know the source of Muir's date of her birth.

1] what length of time elapsed between the supposed date of Cora's demise and the discovery of the remains in the cellar?

2] I may be totally wrong here, but I've got a vague memory of another documentary years ago in which at least one of HH's neighbours on Hilldrop heard gunshots from his house. Is that true?

Cora is suspected of being murdered on the night of January 31st and her remains were discovered nearly 7 months later, on July 13th.

There were reports of neighbors hearing a gunshot from the direction of the Crippen house on the night of the murder, and I believe Crippen had admitted to firing a gun in the garden while teaching Cora how to shoot (but not on the night of the murder). The police discovered a gun at the residence.

JM

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

Although Cora's birthdate does not appear on the marriage certificate, everything else that appears about her on the document is supposedly in error.

She gives her name as Corrine Romney (sp?) Turner, she says her father's name was Joseph Turner and says both of her parents were born in the United States. She gives her age as 19 and the certificate is dated Sept. 1, 1892. So, if her birthday was indeed Sept 3, then this too is incorrect (if only for two days).

I do not know the source of Muir's date of her birth.

Thanks Jonathon,
I'm confused by the marriage date given by Beth in her email to you,

The date of Cora’s birth is calculated from the fact that she lists herself as 19 years old on her marriage license to H. H. Crippen in July of 1892. (a copy of this marriage license is in my possession)

everything I have read gives a date of Sept 1st, like you say, but was this Sept date information given by Cora's sister, who saw a printed wedding card or something?

I'm also puzzled by something else, supposedly from Crippen's statement and reproduced in the book The Trial of Hawley Harvey Crippen by Filson Young.

"She has a sister named Louise, whose name is Mills, living with her husband, who is a soapmaker living in Brooklyn.
They live with my wife's stepfather, Mr. Haraanger."

Haraanger? How does he fit in? A mistranscription of Marsinger perhaps?!

I wonder if the 1911 probate case would shed any light on the genealogy? Would Teresa Hunn have had to prove her relationship with Cora to bring about the application for a grant of letters of administration
of the estate of Cunigunda (otherwise Cora) Crippen.

[jmenges]

Hi Debs,

It just gets curiouser and curiouser...

Like you said, Theresa Hunn was shown a wedding card by Cora which said they were married on Sept. 1, 1892. This date matches the document below titled a Marriage Return.



Where Ms. Wills gets July 1892 is anyone's guess. If another document exists that contains this date then it has not been made public. Like much everything else in this effort, need I say.

The Old Bailey does not give Crippen's July 8, 1910 statement to Dew in the transcripts. So going by Young, p. 39, it does read that her father's name was recorded as Haraanger.

But the letter sent to Louise Mills and her husband Robert was produced at trial and is addressed to "Mrs. Robert Mills, c/o F. Mackamotzki, Green Street, West Avenue, Brooklyn NY"

It is in this section where the Filson Young has her saying Mackamotski was her (Theresa's, and therefore Cora's) stepfather.

Well, we're told that her name was at this point Mersinger, this letter should have been addressed c/o F. Mersinger (Frederick), not Makamotski (Joseph).

Maybe Crippen was as confused as we are as to who the hell Cora's family is!

Something else I pointed out in my RN article further muddles the issue, but it may be a simple transcription error.

According to the initial interview statement made by H.H. Crippen to Inspector Walter Dew:

“I had been married to her some little time when she told me her name was not Turner, but Kunigunde Mackamotzki. She said her mother had been married twice, and her name then was Marsinger, and she was living in Brooklyn. Her mother had been dead some years. My wife told me her father was a Russian Pole and her mother was a German”.

In this statement Crippen confirms that Cora was a member of a family named Marsinger, but he also seems to say he was told that his wife’s mother was dead by 1893 (roughly the date of the event he is describing). Alternatively, he could be saying that by the date of his statement in 1910 Her mother had been dead some years. The context of this remark remains unclear. In the narrative to her investigation into the family of Cora Crippen, Ms. Wills fails to either discover or reveal the death date of Mrs. Mersinger, but, we know that Mary Mersinger was alive in 1893 since she continued to have children until 1895.

JM

[jmenges]

On that last point. We are told in press accounts that the mother, Mary, was dead by 1910. The question is, was she alive in 1900? 1893?

Ms. Wills does not fully reproduce the census report cited as

1900 Federal Census - Queens, New York
Microfilm Roll T 1062-495
Soundex M-625 Floyd - M626 Anna
Vol 215, E. D. 646, Sheet 2, Line 15
County Queens

only to say that the family had grown between 1880 and 1900.

Bertha, the source of the family DNA, was born in 1893. It is unfortunate that Ms Wills leaves out the evidence that Mary Wolff was her mother.

JM

[Debra A]

Bertha, the source of the family DNA, was born in 1893. It is unfortunate that Ms Wills leaves out the evidence that Mary Wolff was her mother.

JM

Jonathon, I know Wills sites Cullen on this, and I haven't that source available. I notice the LDS site has the genealogy of Cora and Teresa, Teresa being the daughter of Marie Wolffe and Joseph Mackamotzki....all unsourced.

According to other reading; Crippen seems to have taken a bit of a delight in the fact that the marriage details given would have been a bit of mess that would take some sorting out by solicitors.


Anyway, As you say in Ripper Notes (good article btw), and Simon has also stated, the other evidence against Crippen seems to outweigh the dubious DNA evidence by a mile! Crippen even hinted that he had a lot on his mind when captured (enough to want to commit suicide) and that he was glad the weight of it all was off his shoulders.

[Suzi]

Hi Debs- Have just printed off the Old Bailey thingy from work...as a girl does and having a serious read here......Not getting involved till I do! Amazing stuff though and reading the court proceedings are quite stunningThanks all

Suzi x

[Debra A]

Hi suzi, Just don't get blinded by science....it aint all that!

[Chris]

Bertha, the source of the family DNA, was born in 1893. It is unfortunate that Ms Wills leaves out the evidence that Mary Wolff was her mother.

Having read what's been posted here, I'm still puzzled about where "Mary Wolff" comes from in the first place.

I believe the federal census returns are readily available through ancestry.com.

From what I've read, the position regarding registrations of births, marriages and deaths in New York is more complicated. I'm not clear whether the records are complete for the 1870s, but it looks as though they should be for the 1890s onwards - covering the period when Bertha was born and Mary died. It seems the indexes have been microfilmed by the church of LDS and should be available through their Family History Centres.

[Chris]

Sorry - I obviously hadn't looked properly at the marriage document you posted, which identifies Cora's mother as Mary Wolff. And in my ignorance of American records I didn't realise that marriage documents included the mother's maiden name. Even if that's to be taken with a pinch of salt, it could be confirmed by other sources such as Teresa's marriage record. And either Bertha's birth certificate or her marriage certificate would confirm whether she was Cora's half sister.

The trouble is that the genealogical details are all a bit academic, given the claim that the tissue on the slide has been shown to come from a male. If that's accepted, the remains obviously weren't those of Cora. And if Dr Foran's findings on the sex of the deceased aren't reliable, that would cast doubt on the DNA comparison.

[Debra A]

Something else I pointed out in my RN article further muddles the issue, but it may be a simple transcription error.

According to the initial interview statement made by H.H. Crippen to Inspector Walter Dew:

“I had been married to her some little time when she told me her name was not Turner, but Kunigunde Mackamotzki. She said her mother had been married twice, and her name then was Marsinger, and she was living in Brooklyn. Her mother had been dead some years. My wife told me her father was a Russian Pole and her mother was a German”.

In this statement Crippen confirms that Cora was a member of a family named Marsinger, but he also seems to say he was told that his wife’s mother was dead by 1893 (roughly the date of the event he is describing). Alternatively, he could be saying that by the date of his statement in 1910 Her mother had been dead some years. The context of this remark remains unclear. In the narrative to her investigation into the family of Cora Crippen, Ms. Wills fails to either discover or reveal the death date of Mrs. Mersinger, but, we know that Mary Mersinger was alive in 1893 since she continued to have children until 1895.

JM

Jonathon, Mary Mersinger was definitely still alive in 1900, she is listed with the family BW identifies.
It also says that she had been married to Frederic Mersinger for 24 years (roughly since 1876) that seems to tie in with Cora and Teresa being the children of another marriage.

The 1900 census also says Mary was the mother of 10 children, 9 of them still living.

[Debra A]

If that DNA is male, then perhaps Cora was a man?!

Coincidentally, I couldn't help but notice that on the 1880 census entry identified as being Cora, that she seems to have been listed with M for male and relationship to head of son originally, and this has been written over to say F for female and changed to daughter....probably just an honest mistake....but...makes you wonder if there was ever some sort of doubt though eh?!!!

[Chris]

Coincidentally, I couldn't help but notice that on the 1880 census entry identified as being Cora, that she seems to have been listed with M for male and relationship to head of son originally, and this has been written over to say F for female and changed to daughter....probably just an honest mistake....but...makes you wonder if there was ever some sort of doubt though eh?!!!

I wonder if Antoin and his parents could be found in the 1870 census. I had a bit of a try on Ancestry.com, but couldn't find anything that looked remotely like "Mackamotski". In fact I haven't been able to find any mention anywhere of that surname, except in relation to Cora's family.