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Oh, Dear Boss: Druitt's on a Sticky Wicket

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  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    i hope researchers will learn from what has been posted and will be able to re think their own preferred coveted suspects viability, because I am sure this major issue of suspect catergorization is needed in ripperology you cant have a 100+ list of potential suspects.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    I agree with you on this point Trevor. From a legal point of view almost all the "suspects" on the 100+ list would be considered frivolous and vexatious, but if we were to conform to this restriction there would be no discussion of this forum. There are "suspects" or POI if you prefer, that are worthy of discussion, including Druitt, but they number in the low double digits. But let us not kid ourselves, there is no actual "proof" against anyone. With regard to most preferred "suspects", the terrible if's accumulate.

    Cheers, George
    Last edited by GBinOz; 06-28-2022, 01:31 PM.
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      “Personally, & after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2. but I have always held strong opinions regarding no 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become. The truth, however, will never be known, and did indeed, at one time lie at the bottom of the Thames, if my conjections [5] be correct.”

      He doesn’t use the word ‘suspect’ of course but it’s quite clear that he has strong opinions on Druitt. He clearly favours Druitt whilst accepting that there wasn’t enough to build a case. And even when he retired 25 years later he was still going for Druitt.
      Theres just one problem with that above paragraph tho isnt there ?

      Where exactly does MM say that ? i dont see it in his original memoranda, which the original is here to see.
      'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

        Theres just one problem with that above paragraph tho isnt there ?

        Where exactly does MM say that ? i dont see it in his original memoranda, which the original is here to see.
        I don’t understand your point Fishy? The quote was from Macnaghten himself (the Aberconway version of the memorandum)
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes

        “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

          I don’t understand your point Fishy? The quote was from Macnaghten himself (the Aberconway version of the memorandum)
          My point being and i think its a fair one , that if one chooses to use the Aberconway version, where does that leave us who wish to quote the Original Macnaghten version where those words dont exist ?

          How did those words appear in the Aberconway version and not the original ?, and which one would be more likely to be correct ?
          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

            My point being and i think its a fair one , that if one chooses to use the Aberconway version, where does that leave us who wish to quote the Original Macnaghten version where those words dont exist ?

            How did those words appear in the Aberconway version and not the original ?, and which one would be more likely to be correct ?
            We don’t know. They were still his words though. We don’t know why he left that part out of te official version though. I can’t even speculate.
            Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes

            “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              We don’t know. They were still his words though. We don’t know why he left that part out of te official version though. I can’t even speculate.
              Are they? To be fair tho herlock we know the original MM are his words because there in his own handwriting and his signature and the date are on the bottom of the page

              But as for the aberconway version . Where's the documented proof that there his words ?ive never seen that version , and wasn't that a translation of the original? .if what your saying is correct wouldn't there need to be a separate document ? Because how could you translate something that doesn't exist.?

              Do you get what I'm trying to say?
              'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

              Comment


              • whats always intrigued me about druitt is the family suspicion and family/friend connection with MM. It seems not many serial killers are suspected/busted by there families. I wonder if they found something out after he had killed himself that lead them to suspect him? was it related to getting sacked at work?
                Did his brother find something incriminating in his belongings when going through his stuff?

                and why no defense or rebuttal of Mac by family when he named him?
                Last edited by Abby Normal; 06-28-2022, 03:49 PM.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                  Are they? To be fair tho herlock we know the original MM are his words because there in his own handwriting and his signature and the date are on the bottom of the page

                  But as for the aberconway version . Where's the documented proof that there his words ?ive never seen that version , and wasn't that a translation of the original? .if what your saying is correct wouldn't there need to be a separate document ? Because how could you translate something that doesn't exist.?

                  Do you get what I'm trying to say?
                  It was a version that was in her fathers possession. I can’t recall where the document is these days but we surely can’t imagine that this was an kind of orderly? The two versions only differ slightly. Actually there was apparently a third version but no one knows anything about that one except for who apparently owned it.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes

                  “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                  Comment


                  • [QUOTE=Abby Normal;n788497]whats always intrigued me about druitt is the family suspicion and family/friend connection with MM. It seems not many serial killers are suspected/busted by there families. I wonder if they found something out after he had killed himself that lead them to suspect him? was it related to getting sacked at work?
                    Did his brother find something incriminating in his belongings when going through his stuff?

                    and why no defense or rebuttal of Mac by family when he named him?[/QUOnTE]

                    The MM was an internal police memo the Druitt family would not have been aware of its contents or whether or not they were ever aware of what MM had been given such information,

                    This is what makes the MM unsafe MM had every opportunity to speak to the family about what they are alleged to have belived about their son but we see no follow up from MM in the Aberconway Version.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                    Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 06-28-2022, 04:22 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      whats always intrigued me about druitt is the family suspicion and family/friend connection with MM. It seems not many serial killers are suspected/busted by there families. I wonder if they found something out after he had killed himself that lead them to suspect him? was it related to getting sacked at work?
                      Did his brother find something incriminating in his belongings when going through his stuff?

                      why no defense or rebuttal of Mac when he named him?
                      I think that the lack of rebuttal was down to the MM never being made public. The possibilities are intriguing though.

                      A series of murders of increasing in ferocity - the Kelly murder on the 9th - 21 days later Druitt is sacked from a school that he’s worked at since 1880 for something so serious that it’s never mentioned - on 21st December Druitt is removed as Honorary Secretary and Treasurer of the Blackheath Club (his membership also ended) because he’d allegedly ‘gone abroad.’

                      Three questions:

                      1. William was told about Monty being missing on the 11th December and Monty’s body isn’t pulled out of the Thames until December 31st. So why is Druitt removed as Secretary and Treasurer so quickly and 10 days before his fate is known? When he was sacked it would surely have been kept quiet to save the school from any scandal? So why were the club so desperate to get Druitt gone from a club that he’d been dedicated to for years and how had they got to know that something was so wrong?

                      2. Being Secretary and Treasurer involved duties. Being a member doesn’t. So normally if someone couldn’t fulfil their duties for whatever reason (work, travel etc) they would just surrender those roles but why membership? This is a minor pin but it shows that they absolutely knew that Monty wasn’t coming back.

                      3. Is it believable that Druitt’s friends/colleagues at Kings Bench Walk wouldn’t have been aware that Monty had worked at the school for the last 8 years? Surely not. So wouldn’t they have contacted the school after Monty had gone missing (and before they’d contacted William on the 11th?) Apparently they didn’t though because William said that he’d only discovered Monty’s sacking after he’d got to London (and after Monty’s friends had been missing him for around 12 days) How could they not have thought of contacting the school? And even if the school wouldn’t have gone into details at the very least they’d have at least been informed that Monty no longer worked there. Yet they apparently didn’t tell William.

                      Whatever happened I’d say that there was more than meets the eye going on.
                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes

                      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                      Comment


                      • [QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;n788501]
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        whats always intrigued me about druitt is the family suspicion and family/friend connection with MM. It seems not many serial killers are suspected/busted by there families. I wonder if they found something out after he had killed himself that lead them to suspect him? was it related to getting sacked at work?
                        Did his brother find something incriminating in his belongings when going through his stuff?

                        and why no defense or rebuttal of Mac by family when he named him?[/QUOnTE]

                        The MM was an internal police memo the Druitt family would not have been aware of its contents or whether or not they were ever aware of what MM had been given such information,

                        This is what makes the MM unsafe MM had every opportunity to speak to the family about what they are alleged to have belived about their son but we see no follow up from MM in the Aberconway Version.

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                        Just because something isn’t seen it writing isn’t proof that it didn’t happen. The follow up point is a non-point. A follow up might have been pointless or he might have done a follow up but not recorded it. Change the record Trevor.
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes

                        “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          I think that the lack of rebuttal was down to the MM never being made public. The possibilities are intriguing though.

                          A series of murders of increasing in ferocity - the Kelly murder on the 9th - 21 days later Druitt is sacked from a school that he’s worked at since 1880 for something so serious that it’s never mentioned - on 21st December Druitt is removed as Honorary Secretary and Treasurer of the Blackheath Club (his membership also ended) because he’d allegedly ‘gone abroad.’

                          Three questions:

                          1. William was told about Monty being missing on the 11th December and Monty’s body isn’t pulled out of the Thames until December 31st. So why is Druitt removed as Secretary and Treasurer so quickly and 10 days before his fate is known? When he was sacked it would surely have been kept quiet to save the school from any scandal? So why were the club so desperate to get Druitt gone from a club that he’d been dedicated to for years and how had they got to know that something was so wrong?
                          I believe there were a number of links between the cricket club and the school, not least that George Valentine was apparently a member. His brother William Stather Valentine was on the committee, and another member Fred Lacey was said to be an assistant master there (can anyone confirm this?). So I suspect that the club would have been aware of the state of play with Monty, whether his suicide note had been found by that time, his sacking had already occurred, or that he was simply AWOL.

                          2. Being Secretary and Treasurer involved duties. Being a member doesn’t. So normally if someone couldn’t fulfil their duties for whatever reason (work, travel etc) they would just surrender those roles but why membership? This is a minor pin but it shows that they absolutely knew that Monty wasn’t coming back.
                          Was he definitely removed as a member from Blackheath? Or did it perhaps simply expire at the end of the year? I do recall his MCC membership was marked as "deceased" shortly after his death was discovered.
                          On the subject of his club roles, I'm a bit confused as to why he was removed as secretary at the meeting as, from what I've read, the secretary at the time was FS Ireland, and had been since 1886. Druitt had been secretary previously, though. Curious.
                          ​​​​​​

                          3. Is it believable that Druitt’s friends/colleagues at Kings Bench Walk wouldn’t have been aware that Monty had worked at the school for the last 8 years? Surely not. So wouldn’t they have contacted the school after Monty had gone missing (and before they’d contacted William on the 11th?) Apparently they didn’t though because William said that he’d only discovered Monty’s sacking after he’d got to London (and after Monty’s friends had been missing him for around 12 days) How could they not have thought of contacting the school? And even if the school wouldn’t have gone into details at the very least they’d have at least been informed that Monty no longer worked there. Yet they apparently didn’t tell William.

                          Whatever happened I’d say that there was more than meets the eye going on.
                          Do we actually know how how formally Druitt's brother had been informed of his absence from chambers? Is it known that he received word by letter, as Wickerman mentioned earlier? I'd always had the impression from the sparse inquest reports that it was simply from a casual mention, and so wouldn't have been a cause of instant worry for William.
                          That's probably just me though.



                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                            I believe there were a number of links between the cricket club and the school, not least that George Valentine was apparently a member. His brother William Stather Valentine was on the committee, and another member Fred Lacey was said to be an assistant master there (can anyone confirm this?). So I suspect that the club would have been aware of the state of play with Monty, whether his suicide note had been found by that time, his sacking had already occurred, or that he was simply AWOL.
                            According to Paul Begg, Monty was proposed for membership of the Blackheath Cricket Club by George Valentine, and seconded by Assistant Master Frederick Henry Lacey in 1881. We can, I think, probably accept that Valentine would have felt that the club should have been advised of Monty's "serious trouble", although it seems that the exact details were not disclosed publicly, and "gone abroad" was quoted.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                              .
                              Was he definitely removed as a member from Blackheath? Or did it perhaps simply expire at the end of the year? I do recall his MCC membership was marked as "deceased" shortly after his death was discovered.
                              On the subject of his club roles, I'm a bit confused as to why he was removed as secretary at the meeting as, from what I've read, the secretary at the time was FS Ireland, and had been since 1886. Druitt had been secretary previously, though. Curious.
                              ​​​​​​
                              I don’t have any books with me at the moment Joshua so I’m only going from a few notes that I made from reading Jon Hainsworth’s book but I have Druitt as Honorary Secretary as opposed to just Secretary. So it could well have been that Ireland was the Secretary but Druitt was given an honorary role.
                              Regards

                              Sir Herlock Sholmes

                              “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post

                                According to Paul Begg, Monty was proposed for membership of the Blackheath Cricket Club by George Valentine, and seconded by Assistant Master Frederick Henry Lacey in 1881. We can, I think, probably accept that Valentine would have felt that the club should have been advised of Monty's "serious trouble", although it seems that the exact details were not disclosed publicly, and "gone abroad" was quoted.
                                Quite so, Doc. Although if Druitt was only missing at that time, there may have been no exact details to withold.

                                Lacey doesn't seem to appear on the 1881 census at the school, so I was wondering if this had been verified elsewhere.
                                ​​​​​​

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