A Petticoat Parley: Women in Ripperology

[harry]

No oodles of money needed Ally.Just fourpence.I do not need to answer your last question as to what work was avaiable to Nichols.She didnt claim she was going to get money by working.What she said was,'I'll soon get my doss money;see what a jolly bonnet Ive got now'.No mention of work.Perhaps she was hoping to sell her bonnet.
Next question.

[Mark J D]

... You who insist the five were criminals engaged in criminal behavior at the time of their deaths, or myself who is more cautious in determining their status...

<*boggle*...>

M.

[Ally]

No oodles of money needed Ally.Just fourpence.I do not need to answer your last question as to what work was avaiable to Nichols.She didnt claim she was going to get money by working.What she said was,'I'll soon get my doss money;see what a jolly bonnet Ive got now'.No mention of work.Perhaps she was hoping to sell her bonnet.
Next question.

Ah and there you go avoiding the questions because you don't feel you need to support or provide evidence for your preposterous claims. Wrong, but illustrative. So let's take the jolly bonnet statement. And to whom precisely do you think she'd have luck SELLING a bonnet to at 2 in the morning? If she'd been inclined to sell a bonnet, she could have done it at any reasonable time of day, like when the pawn shops were open, but no, she waited until the wee small hours of the morning, when there's just loads of fashionistas willing to take the hat off an unfortunates head, right out on the street. This is a totally logical plan. So you're claiming that they weren't prostitutes, they were just complete morons with mental deficiencies who didn't know when the pawn shops were open?

The pretzels your implicit bias make you twist yourself into are quite amusing. But yes, you do need to answer what jobs were available, because Annie had spent the day with her friends, presumably she'd have tapped any of them while she was drinking with them that day, and therefore, how was she going to "earn" her doss money? No bonnet, friends had already been exploited all day for beer money of they'd had any to spare, and yet she still planned to come back soon with her doss money. So what jobs, were available at 2 in the morning for a woman to earn her doss in Whitechapel 1888?

But keep twisting. Watching people make unhinged arguments blinded by their own bias is quite my favorite sport. It gives me insight into so much insanity currently happening in the world today, where people deny the obvious and what's clearly right in front of them because what they believe to be true, is true, regardless of facts.

Like you implicitly believing Hutchinson on the loan and use him, despite failing apparently to recognize that my point is exemplified in that .... he had no money to loan MJK.... but ignoring the part that she went off canoodling with another "well-dressed" man. Was that well-dressed stranger just going to loan her money too out of the kind goodness of his heart. Sooooo many generous and willing men in Whitechapel, helping out all those unfortunate women, purely out of charity. That's such a better story isn't it? So cute, which parts of witness testimony you disregard, and which you cling to, because you're incapable of admitting what literally everyone who knew them and the facts indicate. Not at all implicit in the bias.

[Losmandris]

Though of course we can never be 100% sure. I would say with all the evidence we have and looking at the profile and circumstances of the victims we can say with a 99.9% probability they were prostitutes. We can also say that the culprit was a killer of prostitutes as it is 99.9% likely that those killed were prostitutes. However we can not say for any certainty that it was the culprits motive. It is extremely likely that the culprit aimed to be a killer of vulnerable women i.e. those he was able to kill with the lest risk possible. This whole were they weren't they discussion seems completely futile to me. I am really not in favour of deliberately ignoring the bl**ding obvious. It is really does nothing for ones credibility. Being pedantic is one thing but this? Just silly and a little petty.

[The Baron]

I am really not in favour of deliberately ignoring the bl**ding obvious. It is really does nothing for ones credibility. Being pedantic is one thing but this? Just silly and a little petty.

Then why don't you adopt the 100% certainty then?!

What is this if not being pedantic?!

And if you started your post saying we can never be 100% sure, why did you end it disecribing this doubt status as silly and petty?!

You don't see the paradox in your ressoning do you?!

I will not describe those victims as prostitutes based on your fondness of numbers and math.


I will give them the benefit of the doubt.



The Baron

[Ally]

I will give them the benefit of the doubt.


The Baron

What's the exact "benefit" that is conveyed to them by your stance?

[The Baron]

What's the exact "benefit" that is conveyed to them by your stance?

Whether you like it Ally or not, women don't like to be described as prostitutes.

And I will give them the benefit of not being described as such.

You can accuse me of sexism if you want, not as if I can prevent you, can I?!

But since you are successful in exposing the underlying truth that guides people's thinking, do you think Hallie suffers the same sexism that I have, or maybe something completely different this time?!



The Baron

[Ally]

Whether you like it Ally or not, women don't like to be described as prostitutes.

And yet, we aren't describing them as thus. We are stating whether or not they engaged in the practice as a matter of survival. But, in case you weren't aware, they're quite dead and immune to your judgment based on what they did to survive. But people generally speaking don't like to be called alcoholics when in the midst of getting blind drunk either. And yet, you're not taking up arms to defend them against these slurs on their character.

And I will give them the benefit of not being described as such.

And here it is. You see, the "benefit of the doubt" is a phrase used when you are ascribing to someone a moral failing that you will graciously and magnanimously refrain from placing on someone. Which means you find survival sex work a moral failing. Otherwise there's no benefit of the doubt to convey.

You can accuse me of sexism if you want, not as if I can prevent you, can I?!

Thank you, quite right.

But since you are successful in exposing the underlying truth that guides people's thinking, do you think Hallie suffers the same sexism that I have, or maybe something completely different this time?!

Oh I absolutely think that Hallie suffers from the same form of sexist ideology when it comes to sex workers. What, were you under the impression that only men indulged in sexism against women? My goodness no. Women are quite capable of being as or more misogynistic and sexist than men are, after all we have the "benefit" of having more exposure to its application on a daily and pervasive basis.

[Mark J D]

... do you think Hallie suffers the same sexism that I have, or maybe something completely different this time?!

At the risk of provoking more of this jackass's whirling lunacies, I feel I ought to say that what I think Rubenhold 'suffers from' is, inter alia, such an intense need (internally generated, externally imposed, or both) to have 'discovered something new!', that she came up with a load of counter-evidential codswallop and packaged it as if it were a paradigm-shifting discovery. Now she's surfing the Zeitgeist all the way to major success -- with the help of the countless mediocre intellects and low-grade integrities who not only love what she wrongly says is true, but also adore the permission it gives them to sanctify their surplus guilty hate by self-righteously venting it on a powerless and largely innocent outgroup.

All in all, it's been a disgusting exhibition, albeit one that shows the real face of our age with unaccustomed clarity.

M.

[The Baron]

the "benefit of the doubt" is a phrase used when you are ascribing to someone a moral failing that you will graciously and magnanimously refrain from placing on someone. Which means you find survival sex work a moral failing. Otherwise there's no benefit of the doubt to convey.

From Cambridge Dictionary:


give sb the benefit of the doubt


to believe something good about someone, rather than something bad, when you have the possibility of doing either:


• I didn't know whether his story was true or not, but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.



You see Ally, your dictionary is making heads and tails to the phrase that has nothing to do with morality failings.


You are not alone, we see it often recently, the meanings of words and phrases being twisted and blown dramatically to give a birth of a fanciful meanings, just to support someone's point of view, when did you visit Lechmere and Maybrick threads last time?!


I think the little truth in Hallie's book overweighs the titanic 'facts' that we have, because it is more important, and the only thing that we can do for those poor victims.


When you say something like this:


>> But, in case you weren't aware, they're quite dead


Then expect to lose every time, even from Rubenhold.



The Baron

[Ally]

From Cambridge Dictionary:


to believe something good about someone, rather than something bad, when you have the possibility of doing either:

Thank you for finally admitting that you believe people who engage in sex work in order to survive are doing something bad. It's been quite the ordeal to get you to this point. Now, let's unpack why precisely you believe they're doing something "bad"? What precisely is the "bad"? I mean, is it "good" to starve?

[The Baron]

Thank you for finally admitting that you believe people who engage in sex work in order to survive are doing something bad. It's been quite the ordeal to get you to this point. Now, let's unpack why precisely you believe they're doing something "bad"? What precisely is the "bad"? I mean, is it "good" to starve?

I cannot believe I have to explain that to you!

Woman don't like being described as prostitutes, so describing them as prostitutes is Bad!

Prostitution is a criminal offence, criminal offences are Bad!


What I think about sex working to survive has nothing to do here, why are you trying to change the goalpost?!

And which survive are you talking about?! Don't we read the claim that they spent their moneys on Alcohol?!

Is that your understanding of sex work in order to survive?!



The Baron

[Ally]

I cannot believe I have to explain that to you!

Prostitution is a criminal offence, criminal offences are Bad!

Ah. Criminal offences are bad. Like....say, helping escaped slaves escape to freedom, which was a crime, also bad? Being gay? Bad? Are you really going to stand on the notion that if one commits a crime, no matter what that crime may be, they are "bad"? Well that's a .... choice.

And which survive are you talking about?! Don't we read the claim that they spent their moneys on Alcohol?!

Is that your understanding of sex work in order to survive?!

The Baron

And there I believe we have it. Thanks for playing.

[harry]

No matter what explanations we supply Baron,Alley and others appear fixated with discrediting Rubenhold,and they cannot do it.It is blinding their judgement.You and I have answered Allys quesions,and the one inescapable fact is she will refuse to believe that the victims had other options than prostitution.Sure there is a suspicion that prostitution might have been a factor,I have said that,but the fact is there were thousands of women who were unfortunates and homeless(for those who wish to use statistics) who abstained from prostituting themselves.All or some of the five could have been among them.This obsession unfortuntes had to be prostitutes is akin to those who insisst a person who finds a body is automatically a suspect.Utterly futile reasoning.


.'

[Ally]

No matter what explanations we supply Baron,Alley and others appear fixated with discrediting Rubenhold,and they cannot do it.It is blinding their judgement.You and I have answered Allys quesions,and the one inescapable fact is she will refuse to believe that the victims had other options than prostitution.

.'

And yet when asked to list one job they could have been doing to earn their doss at 2 am, you couldn't come up with a single idea. And you say we're blind. Keep thrashing Harry, I love watching monkeys dance and this is almost as amusing.