Ep. #46- The Non-Canonical Victims: Part One

[Jon Guy]

Just a couple of points following on from the podcast.

Regarding Emma Smith`s injuries and suggested botched abortion. According to Evans and Rumbelow "Scotland Yard Investigates", Inspector Reid noted that "the partition between front and back passage" had been "broken not cut".
This was no abortion, why was her ear torn if it was an abortion? Why such damage and let her live when she could name her abortionist.

The disturbance the Hewitt`s heard in George Yard on the morning of the Tabram murder was a single cry of murder, and was earlier in the evening, such cries were not uncommon for such a rough area.

[Ben]

Hi AP,

The possibilites for tranpsort and home-ownership have increased markedly since the LVP, even for the working class poor. Many of the menially employed back then would at least be living in private accomodation and in possession of some form of private transport in today's terms. I daresay that an 1888 equivalent of Steve Wright would be living in shared accomodation with no private transport to speak of.

Best regards,
Ben

[Cap'n Jack]

I fear we are slightly out of our time zone here, for we talk of times when a man with a pound in his pocket was a king, and a woman with a polished farthing in her apron was an 'unfortunate'.
I'm unable to access the expanded version of the Hewitt's testimony but they do describe what appears to be a rolling gang fight for most of that night.
Is someone here really trying to tell me that somewhere like Crossinghams was 'home' for these victims? It was a doss house.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Cap`n

Regarding the Hewitt`s "disturbance", the Mahoney`s arrived home without mentioning anything, Mrs Mahoney felt ok to nip out to Thrawl St on her own, and P.C. Barrett never reported any disturbances.

[Dorian Gray]

I just want to say "Hi" & welcome Dorian Gray to the boards.

You named yourself after one of my favorite novels, so I like you already!

And thanks for the info on the pen-knife/clasp-knife comparison; much appreciated.
I found this site selling REAL Pen-Knives. I sure hope schools know about them; they look pretty dangerous

http://www.tbotech.com/penknives.htm

Best regards, Archaic

Thank you for your kinds words, Ally and Archaic. The official welcome is also appreciated, Archaic.

Wilde's novel is one of my favourites as well, and my username boiled down to either Dorian Gray or Jabberwock. My mother and grandfather were highly interested in JtR, and found the suggestions of Wilde, Carroll, and later Sickert, as suspects in the Whitechapel murders tremendously funny.

Unfortunately Archaic, the concealed weapon website you posted is all too common.

I did find one web site with some good photos of 19th century pen/pocket knives:

http://www.loringpage.com/pens/cat01d.htm

Regards,

Dorian

[Robert]

Hi Dorian

I noticed that you haven't put your picture on your profile.

I can understand why.

[Cap'n Jack]

Robert
one hundred per cent classic Robert, superb.

[Robert]

Thanks AP! And of course, welcome to Dorian.

[Dorian Gray]

Thanks AP! And of course, welcome to Dorian.

Robert,

Your comment actually made me laugh.

Though if I were to post a profile picture, I would probably chose:

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bacon/head-vi.jpg

Thanks for the welcome. I should post a proper introduction at some point.

Regards,

Dorian

[Archaic]

Hi Dorian
I noticed that you haven't put your picture on your profile.
I can understand why.

Dang! I wish I'd said that.

Good one, Robert.

Regards, Archaic (And Dorian, your portrait is just charming. I only hope it bears no earthly resemblance to you.)

[robhouse]

I just listened to the podcast. I was wondering if the reference to the Hewitt's expanded testimony about gangs etc, was in fact a reference to the statements of a Mr and Mrs Reeves as printed I believe in the Eastern Post, August 18, 1888.

I dont think I have seen any other reference to this, but I would be interested if anyone else had.

"Mr. and Mrs. Reeves now state that on the evening and towards midnight on Bank Holiday a

NUMBER OF FIGHTS TOOK PLACE

in Wentworth Street and George Street, which thoroughfares can be seen from George Yard Buildings. These streets contain a number of common lodging-houses, and are not far from a house which the woman "Pearly Poll" states that she and the deceased visited that night.

Both Mr. and Mrs. Reeves have pointed out the spot where they allege these disturbances commenced, which they state to be the dead wall of Leterworth Buildings, in George Street.

The first row commenced about 11:30, followed by another at 12:20 when both Mr. and Mrs. Reeves assert they heard cries of "Police!" "Help!" and terrible screaming.

Shortly after one o'clock in the morning they were again disturbed with terrible screams, apparently coming from the same neighbourhood. They went on to the balcony of their dwelling, and found that there was not only one, but two separate rows going on. That in George Street this time was not many doors from the house where the murdered woman and her companion, "Pearly Poll," sometimes lodged, whilst the row in Wentworth Street was not from a house in Angel Alley, which the woman "Pearly Poll" is said to have admitted that she visited that evening.

These two rows, Mr. and Mrs. Reeves say, were of a very noisy and quarrelsome character. The crowds round surged backwards and forwards a great deal. At last the police came and dispersed the crowd. This did not conclude the riotous proceedings of the night. About 2 o'clock Mr. and Mrs. Reeves heard more screams, they were this time very piercing. Only a few roughs seemed to constitute this crowd, which seemed to be moving in the direction of George Yard. However, the noise soon lessened in volume, and Mr. and Mrs. Reeves then retired for the night. "

Rob House

[Monty]

Killing outside his class

AP made an interesting point regarding his belief that Jacks victims were not of his class.

I personally disagree with his view however I do think its certainly worthy of discussion.

So if anyone wishes.

Monty

[Septic Blue]

AP made an interesting point regarding his belief that Jacks victims were not of his class.

I personally disagree with his view however I do think its certainly worthy of discussion.

The Bottom Line: We do not know who he was, or for that matter, whence he came; so we cannot possibly have the foggiest notion, as to which socio-economic class he belonged.

That aside; the issue might depend upon one's own perception of the various socio-economic classes that existed in London, during the 1880's/1890's.

If one were to base that perception on the first of Charles Booth's three surveys, "Labour and Life of the People: London"; Williams and Norgate, 1889-1891 (two volumes + appendix); the conclusion would likely be drawn, that the class to which the victims belonged*, constituted a very small minority of the overall populace, of the given area.

* Booth's Class 'A'

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Assuming a more detailed perspective of the 'Whitechapel' area; …

Whitechapel Registration District / Poor Law Union:
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889 / County of London, 1889-1965)
- The Liberty of Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- [The Liberty of the Tower]
--- [The Precinct of Old Tower Without]
--- [The Tower]
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph without Aldgate (portion within the County of Middlesex, -1889 / County of London, 1889-1965)

- Total Population (1891 Census): 74,462
- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 73,518
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'A' ('vicious' (i.e. vice-ridden), 'semi-criminal'): 3.3%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'B' ('very poor'): 8.9%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'C' ('poor' - irregular income): 10.7%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'D' ('poor' - regular but inadequate income): 16.3%
- (Total Percentage; Below the 'Line of Poverty': 39.2%)
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'E' ('above the line of poverty' - regular 'standard' income): 43.3%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'F' ('highly skilled labour'): 11.3%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'G' ('lower middle-class'): 4.4%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'H' ('upper middle-class'): 1.8%

--- Click the Quote Prompt (White Arrow) to view in JTR Forums.com ---

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Impressive work, Gareth!

I am providing Booth's estimates for East London (less Hackney), so that we can compare 'Whitechapel' to the greater 'East End', in the context of your graphic scheme.

- Total Population (1891 Census): 705,114
- Total Population (Charles Booth 1889 Estimate): 708,675
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'A' ('vicious' (i.e. vice-ridden), 'semi-criminal'): 1.33%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'B' ('very poor'): 11.85%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'C' ('poor' - irregular income): 9.00%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'D' ('poor' - regular but inadequate income): 15.83%
- (Total Percentage; Below the 'Line of Poverty': 38.00%)
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'E' ('above the line of poverty' - regular 'standard' income): 44.31%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'F' ('highly skilled labour'): 11.40%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'G' ('lower middle-class'): 4.54%
- Estimated Percentage; Class 'H' ('upper middle-class'): 1.75%

--- Click the Quote Prompt (White Arrow) to view in JTR Forums.com ---

[Monty]

Colin,

This is what perplexes me. As you state, its something that cannot be clarified however Im interested how AP comes to this conclusion.

By class I was referring to the basic working, middle and upper and assumed AP was too. However I accept the Booth classification you use. Interesting stats, many thanks for providing them.

Monty

[ianincleveland]

Very interesting,most people in Whitechapel and the East End in general were above the poverty line,with the highest % in class E which is working with an adequate regular income.We mustnt forget Peter Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ropper could be described as this class,so mutilating prostitutes is not neccesarily the preserve of the very poor.Most really poor people probably had better things to worry about than topping a few women and escaping the police dragnet.

the fact the murders all took place at the end of the week suggests to me a working man with regular work,who has to be up for work during the week,and has money and time to prowl the streets at the weekend,perhaps stopping in pubs to try and suss out potential victims