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Ep. 38- Killers on the Loose: Eliminating the Suspects

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  • #46
    Hi Chris,

    You mean it would have been difficult for Druitt to do all that he would have had to do between the time of the murder and the time of the cricket match?
    Yes.

    You are not talking about the psychology of playing cricket so soon after committing a murder, or the fact that he would have been tired after being up all night?
    Not specifically, but of course both are inextricably linked to the issue of timing.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Ben View Post
      Not specifically, but of course both are inextricably linked to the issue of timing.
      But they are not linked to the issue of how "tight" the timing was - to the issue of how much spare time there would have been to do what had to be done (unless you are arguing Druitt must have had time for a few hours' snooze after returning to Blackheath!).

      Comment


      • #48
        But they are not linked to the issue of how "tight" the timing was - to the issue of how much spare time there would have been to do what had to be done
        Indeed they're not, Chris, although they do impact on the issue of suspect plausibility.

        Comment


        • #49
          Just thought Iīd butt in for a second to offer a wiew that has been overlooked here. When it is stated that Druitt may have been exhausted after a night of killing and eviscerating, I think we must ponder the possibility that the effect of it could well have been quite the opposite of exhaustion. I think that a fair guess is that whoever killed Chapman got a real boost out of it. He was probably exhilarated afterwards, not exhausted.
          For all we know, if Druitt did kill Chapman (and no, I do not think that he did...), that may have been pure speed to him.

          The best, all!
          Fisherman

          Comment


          • #50
            When it is stated that Druitt may have been exhausted after a night of killing and eviscerating, I think we must ponder the possibility that the effect of it could well have been quite the opposite of exhaustion
            I think it's highly probable that such a sensation occured in the immediate aftermath of the murder, Fish, yes. Good point. Whether the thrill of the murder and the realisation that he had escaped undetected again was still as forceful as by 10.00 or 11.00 is more doubtful.

            All the best,
            Ben

            Comment


            • #51
              I would imagine that while the killer would have experience a huge adrenaline rush in the immediate, during the killing and escaping, I would imagine that the adrenaline rush would have given way to exhaustion from both the excess of out all night looking for a victim and the more specific fatigue that follows such a "rush".

              Let all Oz be agreed;
              I'm Wicked through and through.

              Comment


              • #52
                Ben writes:

                "Whether the thrill of the murder and the realisation that he had escaped undetected again was still as forceful as by 10.00 or 11.00 is more doubtful."

                That it is, Ben. Sooner or later the effect must of course have worn off. But I see no reason why it could not be speculated that it may have kept him at a constant "high" at the very least throughout the morning. It may even have prevented him from being able to go to sleep for some considerable time.

                When that time ran out, however, is of course impossible to say. But I thought the phenomenon in itself deserved mentioning in this debate!

                All the best,
                Fisherman

                PS. Ally got a line in before me, and I think it is a good one - once he came down from that cloud, he may well have slept very deeply and for a long time. This all, however, means that we are making the presumption of a certain character on the Rippers behalf. There are also other possibilities; he may have gone to sleep immediately afterwards and slept like a child, just as he may have spent a very troubled night, floating in and out of haunted dreams.
                I still feel that opting for the alternative of him getting a boost out of it all seems the better guess to me.
                Last edited by Fisherman; 01-14-2009, 10:41 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Possibly, Fish, although I'd be extremely surprised if that sort of adrenalized high could be sustained for several hours after the escape before giving way to the sort of fatigue that Ally mentioned, certainly not for the entire morning's duration.

                  Regards,
                  Ben
                  Last edited by Ben; 01-14-2009, 10:58 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Speaking as a cricketer

                    I have known teamates who have played having had no sleep due to working nights, its not unheard of. Judging Blackheaths scorecard, Druitt batted early and only made 2. Thus giving him the rest of the innings to catch some rest. Though he bowled around 13 overs during Christphersons innings, that really isnt a shedload. 6 n 7 split Id say, an they were all out for a mere 93. It was hardly a strenuos game.
                    Monty

                    https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                    Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Ben writes:

                      "I'd be extremely surprised if that sort of adrenalized high could be sustained for several hours after the escape before giving way to the sort of fatigue that Ally mentioned."

                      I actually donīt know if there is any call to be "extremely surprised" by such a thing, Ben, since I donīt have any medical evidence to go by. I donīt know if you have any such firm ground to stand on in this case?

                      The fact is, though, that we know that synthetic speed exist in pill form today, and we likewise know that such pills may keep you awake and at an all time high for days in a stretch, with no sleep at all; X-stacy and such...

                      I see no reason not to believe that the body could produce substances powerful enough to prolong a period of speed for at least the time we are speaking of here -the stretch up to 10 or 11 (as you proposed) in the morning is not all that long, since Chapman died somewhere around dawn.

                      The adrenalin rush would have clinged off, for certain, but to regard it as extremely surprising if it still had an effect so few hours after the strike is a sentiment that takes more flesh on the bones before I buy it.

                      The best
                      Fisherman

                      PS. This time Monty beat me to it, and just like he says, loosing a nights sleep with not too grave consequences is far from unheard of. Then add the adrenalin kick, and I think we need not worry all that much about the Rippers/Druitts fatigue.
                      Last edited by Fisherman; 01-14-2009, 11:11 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Why would he bother in the first place, though, Monty?

                        Wouldn't the night's exertions provide him with a disincentive to play?

                        It just occurs to me that there's often a lack of consistency of approach. We all nod in acquiescence whenever it's observed that Sickert is a bad suspect, which he is, but I just form the impression that the principle behind some (not all) of the criticisms that are levelled at Sickert's candidacy can just as easily be applied to Druitt.
                        Last edited by Ben; 01-14-2009, 11:26 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I actually donīt know if there is any call to be "extremely surprised" by such a thing, Ben, since I donīt have any medical evidence to go by. I donīt know if you have any such firm ground to stand on in this case?
                          Yes, mate. Every member of my father's side of the family have high-powered jobs in the medical profession. I have consulted several of them some time ago when contemplating the Druitt question, and they have borne out my observations. Very few forms of adrenaline rush are capable of being sustained for extended periods of time lasting several hours, Fish, unless you're being supplied with an actual chemical drug such as speed. So yes, I would be extremely surprised if that form of ecstasy could be sustained until 11 o'clock. You can't sustain erections for that long for the same reason.

                          Whether you consider that to be "flesh on the bones" is your perogative, as is the question of whether you believe me or not, but all I would say is that for someone who subscribes to the same view as I do on some of the more key questions, it's frankly amazing how often I disagree with you. Other people on this thread have made observations that you're bound to disagree with, but it didn't surprise me in the slightest that you chose to target one of mine.
                          Last edited by Ben; 01-14-2009, 11:23 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Oh Ben, Ben, Ben, we're never going to agree on this. It seems to me that you are all too willing to make assumptions when they support your argument but anything that runs contrary is labeled as "unlikely" or "implausible." I don't mean any disrespect but I just don't see any consistency in your thinking.

                            Lots of things go unreported and records are lost. We know Druitt was a visitor in Bournemouth in Autumn 1888 yet the Bournemouth visitor's guide has no record of it. Does that mean he wasn't there?

                            I just don't grasp what is so implausible about a man making one round trip between Bournemouth and London (3 hours each way) in a 3 week period, especially when that person has a home and business in London. OK, there isn't a record of it that we know of but that doesn't make it unlikely. It only becomes unlikely when we are dealing with such a short period of time that it seems impractical, such as the time between August 4 and 10. Even then, it is by no means impossible that Druitt could have returned to London to murder Martha Tabram on August 7 but I will concede it's much less likely because the time period is compressed. Three weeks, however, is a lot of time. Druitt could have gone to Moscow and back for all we know. The idea that he could have made one round trip to London in that period of time is simply not at all unlikely.

                            Ben, just try looking at it from the other side of the fence for once:

                            1. Checking newspaper accounts of cricket fixtures for the dates of the murders one finds no direct conflict between Druitt's cricket schedule and the Ripper murders. Since these newspapers do report other matches in which Druitt was involved, the implication is that he likely did not play on those dates (exception: 8 Sept but see below).

                            2. Druitt's cricket match of 8 September confirms that he was in fact in the London area on that date (i.e. he was not in Dorset or elsewhere).

                            3. Druitt's performance on 8 Sept is consistent with a man who was out all night. Clearly, there are other possible explanations for a poor sporting performance but it is consistent with his being out all night . Had he turned in a stellar performance then I might be more inclined to consider it unlikely.

                            4. The absence of a killing in late October fits with Druitt's being in Bournemouth at that time.

                            5. Druitt's family would have known when he was in Dorset and yet they were convinced he was JtR.

                            6. Not only Druitt's family but their MP and the Chief Constable of Scotland Yard were convinced that Druitt was JtR. This in spite of the fact that he does fit the Victorian stereotype of a mad killer.

                            No one of these things makes it likely that Druitt is JtR. All of them together begin to make an argument that he is a very plausible suspect indeed.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Ben

                              Druitt seems to have a passion for the game, I think enough to play. Its not like football. He could have napped after he batted and, during his bowling spell, take refuge at long leg or mid on. Both known as positions where a fielder rarely sees the ball. Its a stop start game. The only player constantly in play during the innings is the keeper.
                              Monty

                              https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                              Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                              http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Ben writes:

                                "Other people on this thread have made observations that you're bound to disagree with, but it didn't surprise me in the slightest that you chose to target one of mine."

                                Have I not told you on several occasions not to overestimate your influence on my behavior , Ben? Need I really do it again?

                                I am fully aware that we share common wiews on many a thing in this case. But these are discussion boards, Ben - not a place to pat each others backs and congratulate one and another to sharing wiews. When I DONīT share wiews with you I find much more reason to debate things. Itīs not all that strange, is it?

                                I am not saying that the peak of the adrenalin effect is sustained for hours on end. Of course it is not. But I think you may recognize that there are occasions in life when the impact of differing occurences has repercussions that make it impossible for you to sleep for days on end. It can be traumatic experiences, but it can likewise be quite the opposite. People who win large amounts of money, people who score a winning goal in an all-important game, people who take a bungy-jump etcetera, may all experience that the initial adrenalin rush is followed by an effect that will not wear off for very long periods. Surely this is something you have at least heard of?

                                "You can't sustain erections for that long for the same reason."

                                The only thing that gives me a six-hour erection is basking in your shadow, Ben. Didnīt you know?

                                Get a grip, please!

                                Fisherman

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