The Whitechapel Society 1888 Victims Conference 8 Sept. 2018

[Debra A]

I can't remember, was there any discussion of Russell Edward's DNA claims before the book came out?

No, he dropped a bombshell on us overnight as I recall?
It was a sensational book that didn't need to drum up interest because everyone has heard of JTR.

[jmenges]

If we are genuinely concerned with the women, then maybe that should be the focus? Letting someone who has a mainstream publishing deal tell those women's stories?

Yes I see your point and its benefits but then what follows is the 'TV movie series based on' deal and whatnot and that just reflexively makes me cringe a bit.

JM

[Debra A]

Yes I see your point and its benefits but then what follows is the 'TV movie series based on' deal and whatnot and that just reflexively makes me cringe a bit.

JM

Yes, perhaps. I wouldn't want to see the lives and struggles of these five women condensed down to concentrate on just one woman and her involvement with high class brothels for example.

[MrBarnett]

Wynne's book did contain a fair amount that was ideas based, rather than factual. That's fine for message board posts to stimulates research but it is disappointing for us as Ripperologists to find it in a long awaited book, as Wynne's was.
For outsiders, some of who have no clue about the women involved , some things would be a revelation. If we are genuinely concerned with the women, then maybe that should be the focus? Letting someone who has a mainstream publishing deal tell those women's stories?

Good point, Debs. But then perhaps the focus should be on women of the East End more generally, using the C5 as merely a springboard for a discussion of the wider issue? We'll have to wait and see.

Given the amount of effort (if it can be called that) we and others have put into the characters and environment of the Pennington Street area, I hope RH focuses on that to some extent.

[Debra A]

Good point, Debs. But then perhaps the focus should be on women of the East End more generally, using the C5 as merely a springboard for a discussion of the wider issue? We'll have to wait and see.

Given the amount of effort (if it can be called that) we and others have put into the characters and environment of the Pennington Street area, I hope RH focuses on that to some extent.

Yes, I agree. I addressed that a little in my last post. That's exactly what I mean. I wouldn't want to see the genuine struggles of 'the vagrant' and other types of East End women's lives and struggles glossed over for frothy costumes and brothel scenes.

[MrBarnett]

Yes, I agree. I addressed that a little in my last post. That's exactly what I mean. I wouldn't want to see the genuine struggles of 'the vagrant' and other types of East End women's lives and struggles glossed over for frothy costumes and brothel scenes.

I doubt something like Edna the Inebriate Woman (x5) would appeal to today's filmmakers. Can't see it doing too well on Netflix. But that's probably closer to the reality of some of the victims lives than the image that implied by the image that will seemingly will appear on HR's US cover.

[Debra A]

I doubt something like Edna the Inebriate Woman (x5) would appeal to today's filmmakers. Can't see it doing too well on Netflix. But that's probably closer to the reality of some of the victims lives than the image that implied by the image that will seemingly will appear on HR's US cover.

Edna the Inebriate Woman was a fascinating insight in to the lives of homeless women who had to tramp and use casual vagrant wards for shelter. I am thankful that you linked to it a few days ago.
Both Polly Nichols and Catherine Eddowes apparently lived that kind of life after separating from their husbands around the same time. If those are the records for both Polly and Kate that I noted from Newington casual ward then the two women were using that casual ward within the same week on a couple of occassions in the early 80's.

[Robert]

Does any of this new info concern the early life of MJK?

[PaulB]

I was recently reading a suggestion that some people have consciously or otherwise exploited 'Jack the Ripper' to reflect current anxieties. I considered this with John Bennet when we worked on a book together. Examples would be Donald McCormick in the Cold War climate of the late 50s and 60s portraying Jack the Ripper as a Russian agent, or Stephen Knight reflecting the conspiracy theories of the 70s with the Royal conspiracy. I'm not sure that the theory actually holds water, although one wonders Jack isn't again being likewise exploited in the era of the Me Too movement. In today's Daily Telegraph Rubenhold is reportedly 'blaming "sexist" historical policemen and researchers for erasing the stories of the victims.'

Unless Rubenhold has been misquoted by the Daily Telegraph, it looks like she's claiming that the victims' lives are unknown and that the sexism of researchers is responsible.

[PaulB]

Does any of this new info concern the early life of MJK?

Speculation based on what she told Barnett, perhaps. We don't know. Those who heard her talk can guess based on what she said. It's to be hoped that she does have new information - it's probable that she does, new information being uncovered all the time - but it is whether she has come up with lots of new info or just a few 'big' things. A few tit-bits isn't going to impress anyone, but will be nonetheless welcome additions to our knowledge. But the book is a long way off. Immediate concerns are less about the content of her book than that she is marketing it by claiming that Ripperologists have neglected the victims and unquestioningly accepted things about them, such as being prostitutes.

[Robert]

Hi Paul

Another one would be Bob Hinton's "From Hell." I wouldn't say that Bob was 'exploiting' stalking, but stalking was in the news at the time of the book's publication. It's almost inevitable that people will be influenced by the times in which they write.

Did HR actually say 'erased'? That would imply that the lives of the victims had been known, but the records were deliberately binned.

[Sam Flynn]

It's almost inevitable that people will be influenced by the times in which they write.

Indeed. Another example might be Stephen Knight's Final Solution, written as it was at a time when talk of conspiracies and official cover-ups was all the rage: JFK, the moon landings, the Profumo scandal, Watergate, etc. There was also quite an appetite for "far-out" thinking at the time, as manifested in Flower Power and its associated New Age/aquarian sympathies, UFO "flaps" and the books of Erich von Däniken, Peter Underwood, Colin Wilson and their ilk.

I sense that the factors which inspired these phenomena still exert an influence on the way some people think, and write, about the Ripper case to this very day.

[PaulB]

Hi Paul

Another one would be Bob Hinton's "From Hell." I wouldn't say that Bob was 'exploiting' stalking, but stalking was in the news at the time of the book's publication. It's almost inevitable that people will be influenced by the times in which they write.

Did HR actually say 'erased'? That would imply that the lives of the victims had been known, but the records were deliberately binned.

The article said that Rubenhold was 'blaming "sexist" historical policemen and researchers for erasing the stories of the victims.'

I don't think she meant that the stories were literally erased, only that the stories weren't found out and history doesn't record them. If so, it is an unjust comment for several reasons.

[PaulB]

Indeed. Another example might be Stephen Knight's Final Solution, written as it was at a time when talk of conspiracies and official cover-ups was all the rage: JFK, the moon landings, the Profumo scandal, Watergate, etc. There was also quite an appetite for "far-out" thinking at the time, as manifested in Flower Power and its associated New Age/aquarian sympathies, UFO "flaps" and the books of Erich von Däniken, Peter Underwood, Colin Wilson and their ilk.

I sense that the factors which inspired these phenomena still exert an influence on the way some people think, and write, about the Ripper case to this very day.

I mentioned Knight and the conspiracy theories prevailing in the 70s, and I had in mind the ancient astronaut arguments of Von Daniken and the Bermuda Triangle of Charles Berlitz (with whom I had occasion to cross swords!). There were some minor attempts to exploit anti-Semitic connotations with the Ripper by Nazi propagandists in WWII, of course. I'm not sure how Matters, Woodhall and Stewart fit into the idea, or whether the more factual approach to the subject in the 1990s could be perceived as a reaction to conspiracist arguments of the 70s and 80s, or whether it was simply a desire to get away from 'suspectology'. That was one thing that motivated me, but that motivation actually goes back to the 70s, so I don't know.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The article said that Rubenhold was 'blaming "sexist" historical policemen and researchers for erasing the stories of the victims.'

I don't think she meant that the stories were literally erased, only that the stories weren't found out and history doesn't record them. If so, it is an unjust comment for several reasons.

If you tried explaining your reasoning for that Paul I get the impression that you’d be accused of ‘mansplaining.’

I might be wrong but I predict that there will be little, if anything, new in this book. We all know how much time and effort researchers have put in trying add to our knowledge of the victim’s lives. There can be very little existing evidence still to be found as these women who were sadly only known because of how they met there end. Before that their lives barely made a ripple on the pool.