One on one with Stephen Senise

[Abby Normal]

While we're at it...

...it should be noted that stout is a kind of beer.

Lewis et al. meant he was short and a kind of beer.

See image of suspect, below.


Stephen
https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senis...ne_cont_book_1

Now that was funny

[cnr]

"stout" continued...

...seriously, though.

Here are two quick Victorian-era references, perfect for our purposes for obvious reasons, where "stout" is referenced in the context of build, not weight (or over-weight):

“rather stoutly built” (based on Schwartz) 1 October 1888, Star

"He appeared to be stoutish built" (James Brown, at the Stride inquest) 6 October, Times

Might I also suggest, that in the case of other witnesses/instances where "stout" is used free of any affixing reference to frame: try substituting it (or its relevant grammatical variant) for the word 'fat'; the result doesn't quite work in my opinion. Comparatively, it goes from being a natural enough expression to one, less-so, almost awkward.

For example. Sarah Lewis' "stout-looking man"* becomes, "fat-looking man".

* Inquest testimony, reported in the (London) Echo, 12 November 1888.

Maybe the best general understanding we could agree on is that the term existed on a continuum and meant both stocky of framework and heavier-set in terms of weight-to-height dimensions.


Stephen

https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senise/e/B071HCHW3N/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

[cnr]

the big break in the case...

While we're at it...

...it should be noted that stout is a kind of beer.

Lewis et al. meant he was short and a kind of beer.

See image of suspect, below.


Stephen

https://www.amazon.com/Stephen-Senise/e/B071HCHW3N/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

[Wickerman]

Evening News, 10th November 1888—

"Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she [Mrs Kennedy] saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before. She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed."

How can this story be true when [according to Hutchinson] at 3.00 am "the deceased" had been in Room 13 with Mister Astrakhan since around 2.15 am?

Alternatively, how can Hutchinson's story be true when [according to Mrs Kennedy] "the deceased" was outside The Britannia at 3.00 am?

Regards,

Simon

Most press accounts have Kennedy entering her parents house "about" 3.00 that morning.The exact time she passed the Britannia is not given.

Hutchinson's police statement appears to suggest he left the Court "about" 2:45.

[Wickerman]

Quite the about-face there Packers, you might wanna sit down before you get dizzy.

Kennedy's story is not the same as Lewis's, and we've been over this too many times.

[packers stem]

I was looking at this the other week. I was studying the Catholic records for Commercial and Underwood Rd and discovered that Mrs Paumier the chestnut seller had half siblings named Kennedy. I haven't figured out if that means anything yet.

That is a find and a half Debs 😊
Great work as always
So there is the tantalising possibility that all three Paumier , Kennedy and Lewis were correct in telling the story of the mysterious man with the bag .
That would be interesting , it would also put Kennedy's final sighting that Simon mentioned above right at the top of the tree .
Still doesn't excuse the Lewis testimony differing so markedly from her statement which makes her a little unreliable

[packers stem]

Hiya Debs
It is a minefield but in the Whitehall Torso inquest it's clear that Bond's idea of 'stout' was somewhat larger than "thoroughly plump" .
I appreciate it was a woman he was talking about but before they had reached discussing if she was stout they had already discussed her being a large ,well nourished woman .
I can only take from it that stout related (in their opinion ) to the stomach rather than the overall size and bone structure of the torso .... taking us back to Lewis , if there was doubt regarding the meaning of the word I would have expected McDonald to ask her to confirm .
We can only assume that McDonald perceived the word the same way as the coroner at Whitehall .
Probably at the moment , the best we've got to go on unless more contemporary mentions of it come to light

[Debra A]

False premise ?
Are you suggesting there was a Mrs Kennedy ?
Even if it can be proven to be so ,and I've looked at it many times and I fear you will struggle to do so , then you've still got the issue that in her statement she couldn't describe the man she saw ,talking to a woman (see the jumbled Kennedy influence ) , and he wasn't wearing a wideawake hat ....a black one .... and he wasn't apparently displaying agitation in watching the court ....
The word 'unreliable' doesn't even come close to doing it justice
She is the corner stone of any Hutchinson theory .
It's complete garbage
How many young men in their twenties ,out of work for weeks ,just walked home 14 miles would be likely to be described as overweight in any way do you think ?
If you want to follow this nonsense, good luck

I was looking at this the other week. I was studying the Catholic records for Commercial and Underwood Rd and discovered that Mrs Paumier the chestnut seller had half siblings named Kennedy. I haven't figured out if that means anything yet.

[Debra A]

Sorry to disappoint everyone but all the talk of broad shoulders and powerfully built etc ....
The word 'stout' in the LVP meant nothing more than fat or overweight .
This is perfectly demonstrated in a conversation between the coroner and Bond at the Whitehall case ; telegraph October 9th
Sarah Lewis (who's testimony should be dismissed by anyone serious, as taking her two Kennedy attempts in the press into account, made the inquest her FOURTH completely different statement ) claims to have spotted a rather short fat guy .
Irrespective of what people perceive 'stout' to mean today , back then it was no more than a polite word for fat .
Hopefully broad shouldered man can now disappear into the large collection of ripperology myths that have built up over the years 😉

Hi Nick
Not that it matters but I did a review of Victorian female convict licence records on this question a few years back. In those records weight and height were given plus there were four categories for body size to put weight vs height in to ratio including the categories 'fat' and 'stocky' and of all the women described as 'stocky' few of them had a BMI that would be classed as overweight today.
I can't find it again though.

[Simon Wood]

Evening News, 10th November 1888—

"Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she [Mrs Kennedy] saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before. She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed."

How can this story be true when [according to Hutchinson] at 3.00 am "the deceased" had been in Room 13 with Mister Astrakhan since around 2.15 am?

Alternatively, how can Hutchinson's story be true when [according to Mrs Kennedy] "the deceased" was outside The Britannia at 3.00 am?

Regards,

Simon

[packers stem]

And now we have Sarah Lewis being disparaged as a witness.

Like I said...lunacy

About time it was questioned isn't it ?

[packers stem]

You're argument is based on a false premise.
It doesn't matter that you 'think' Lewis & Kennedy were the same, that's an opinion, and you're argument is based on an opinion not yet established - false premise.

False premise ?
Are you suggesting there was a Mrs Kennedy ?
Even if it can be proven to be so ,and I've looked at it many times and I fear you will struggle to do so , then you've still got the issue that in her statement she couldn't describe the man she saw ,talking to a woman (see the jumbled Kennedy influence ) , and he wasn't wearing a wideawake hat ....a black one .... and he wasn't apparently displaying agitation in watching the court ....
The word 'unreliable' doesn't even come close to doing it justice
She is the corner stone of any Hutchinson theory .
It's complete garbage
How many young men in their twenties ,out of work for weeks ,just walked home 14 miles would be likely to be described as overweight in any way do you think ?
If you want to follow this nonsense, good luck

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Jon,
Point taken about the respectability of wearing a hat.
That being , it would mean that Kelly initially was not intending to be available , yet an hour or so later returned home to dress down , and resumed on the pick up.?
Could it be she was intending to meet someone , who for some reason let her down, so she returned to her room to dress down.?
Regards Richard.

How about this suggestion; she wore a coat and bonnet when she first went out because it was raining. Later the rain had stopped so when she went out again she left the now damp bonnet and coat at home to dry.
Plausible?

[Abby Normal]

And now we have Sarah Lewis being disparaged as a witness.

Like I said...lunacy

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
Point taken about the respectability of wearing a hat.
That being , it would mean that Kelly initially was not intending to be available , yet an hour or so later returned home to dress down , and resumed on the pick up.?
Could it be she was intending to meet someone , who for some reason let her down, so she returned to her room to dress down.?
Regards Richard.