Release Date for Kosminski Documentary

[Elamarna]

This Ripper going to ground for a bit before dropping the apron actually fits with Jacob Levy much more than Aaron Kosminski.

Levy is indeed a very fine suspect, just behind Anderson's suspect on my list.

Steve

[Lewis C]

Something that I wonder about this is, if Anderson and Swanson were convinced that Kosminski was the Ripper, why didn't they share this info more widely? According to the form at Kosminski's asylum, Kosminski wasn't dangerous to others. Wouldn't it have been in everyone's best interest for the asylum to have been informed that he was dangerous? When Francis Coles was murdered, police looked into the possibility that she might be a Ripper murder, meaning that they weren't convinced that The Ripper was in a lunatic asylum. Macnaughten knew about Kosminski, but apparently what he knew didn't convince him that Kosminski should be the #1 suspect, much less that the case had been solved.

[c.d.]

Hello Lewis,

Agreed. And you would expect that the police would ask asylum officials to notify them if anything at all changed with respect to Kosminski. But somehow they got the details of his death wrong.

Also, it is hard to believe that even if asylum officials were not informed outright who they were harboring that they didn't gather some suspicions. Yet, apparently no leaks in that regard. I can just see some asylum guard in the pub after a few pints. "Hey, you won't believe who we have in our asylum."

c.d.

[Elamarna]

Something that I wonder about this is, if Anderson and Swanson were convinced that Kosminski was the Ripper, why didn't they share this info more widely? According to the form at Kosminski's asylum, Kosminski wasn't dangerous to others. Wouldn't it have been in everyone's best interest for the asylum to have been informed that he was dangerous? When Francis Coles was murdered, police looked into the possibility that she might be a Ripper murder, meaning that they weren't convinced that The Ripper was in a lunatic asylum. Macnaughten knew about Kosminski, but apparently what he knew didn't convince him that Kosminski should be the #1 suspect, much less that the case had been solved.

One suggestion is that the perceived fear of mass public disorder, if it was revealed the killer was Jewish, was an important factor.
Particularily if there was not sufficient evidence to ensure conviction.
Indeed even a successful conviction could conceivably result in the same.
Therefore, you keep the name a secret, the fewer who know, the less chance of a leak.
The end result, the name Kosminski does not surface until the second half of the next century with Macnaughten, and not until nearly 100 years after the 1888 murder, in the case of the Marginlia .

On Coles, look at it from Swanson perspective, you have seen a man you believe to be the killer locked away, and then another murder occurs that is linked to the previous series.
It would be negligent not to check that murder very carefully, because if it was by the same hand as the others, then the killer is still on the loose.
So Swanson, checks the murder himself, adds it to the list of murders in the file, and in my view concludes it's not by the sane hand.

On Macnaughten, the Abberconway version is significantly different to the file version.

The Abberconway version says that the killer was never seen, unless it was by the City PC close to Mitre Square.
In the file version it just says he was never seen.
The Abberconway version also say with regards to "Kosminski" that he bore a great resemblance to that person seen close to Mitre Square; again that is missing from the file version.

In my opinion the memorandum is the oddest document in the whole case, full of blatant, sloppy mistakes. I have pondered for many years if it is all that it seems on the surface.
I plan at some point to produce an indepth work on the memorandum.

I hope that addresses some of your points to a degree.

Steve

[Lewis C]

One suggestion is that the perceived fear of mass public disorder, if it was revealed the killer was Jewish, was an important factor.
Particularily if there was not sufficient evidence to ensure conviction.
Indeed even a successful conviction could conceivably result in the same.
Therefore, you keep the name a secret, the fewer who know, the less chance of a leak.
The end result, the name Kosminski does not surface until the second half of the next century with Macnaughten, and not until nearly 100 years after the 1888 murder, in the case of the Marginlia .

On Coles, look at it from Swanson perspective, you have seen a man you believe to be the killer locked away, and then another murder occurs that is linked to the previous series.
It would be negligent not to check that murder very carefully, because if it was by the same hand as the others, then the killer is still on the loose.
So Swanson, checks the murder himself, adds it to the list of murders in the file, and in my view concludes it's not by the sane hand.

On Macnaughten, the Abberconway version is significantly different to the file version.

The Abberconway version says that the killer was never seen, unless it was by the City PC close to Mitre Square.
In the file version it just says he was never seen.
The Abberconway version also say with regards to "Kosminski" that he bore a great resemblance to that person seen close to Mitre Square; again that is missing from the file version.

In my opinion the memorandum is the oddest document in the whole case, full of blatant, sloppy mistakes. I have pondered for many years if it is all that it seems on the surface.
I plan at some point to produce an indepth work on the memorandum.

I hope that addresses some of your points to a degree.

Steve

Thanks Steve, that does address my points. I can't dispute anything at all in the first paragraph. The police after all had erased the GSG before a picture could even be taken for similar reasons, and I would think there would be far greater reason for them to be concerned if they thought they'd captured the killer himself and he was Jewish, than about graffiti whose meaning is unclear and that might not have even been written by the killer.

Your comments on Coles suggest that they thought that they had the killer locked away, but weren't sure. But maybe other events that occurred after that increased the certainly of Anderson and Swanson that they had definitely solved the case.

In your Macnaughten comments, are you implying that maybe Druitt wasn't really Macnaughten's #1 suspect? Because if Druitt was his top suspect, then it would still be the case that he didn't think that the case had been solved, regardless of what he said in the Abberconway version.

Would you agree that it's extremely unlikely that the City PC that Macnaughten referred to is the same person as Anderson & Swanson's Jewish witness?

The memorandum is quite interesting, so I hope you do get a chance to write an in depth work about it.

[Elamarna]

Thanks Steve, that does address my points. I can't dispute anything at all in the first paragraph. The police after all had erased the GSG before a picture could even be taken for similar reasons, and I would think there would be far greater reason for them to be concerned if they thought they'd captured the killer himself and he was Jewish, than about graffiti whose meaning is unclear and that might not have even been written by the killer.

Your comments on Coles suggest that they thought that they had the killer locked away, but weren't sure. But maybe other events that occurred after that increased the certainly of Anderson and Swanson that they had definitely solved the case.

In your Macnaughten comments, are you implying that maybe Druitt wasn't really Macnaughten's #1 suspect? Because if Druitt was his top suspect, then it would still be the case that he didn't think that the case had been solved, regardless of what he said in the Abberconway version.

Would you agree that it's extremely unlikely that the City PC that Macnaughten referred to is the same person as Anderson & Swanson's Jewish witness?

The memorandum is quite interesting, so I hope you do get a chance to write an in depth work about it.

Lewis C , on the probability of Anderson's polish Jew being the same person mentioned by Macnaughten, I disagree 100%.
The whole point of Martin Fido's 1987 book was to examine if they were linked, and I submit, Martin showed they were.
Neither do I consider it extremely unlikely that the person watched by Sagar and Cox was not the indiviual refered to by Anderson and Swanson.
The reality is we cannot know if it was, tgere are not enough detail, but I see nothing to rule the possibility out.

Steve

[Barnaby]

A Definitively Ascertained Fact

Which is why the title of the documentary finishes with a "?"

Asking a question, not stating as fact

Steve

True of the documentary, which I very much appreciate. It is superb.

Anderson didn't use a question mark. What did they know that we don't? If it is just an eyewitness identification? I'm underwhelmed because all of the problems associated with these, yet forgiving of Anderson because he wouldn't have known this in 1888. Is there anything else other than an eyewitness identification that they could have known that we don't? Obviously, the killer wasn't caught in the act. So what other evidence other than an eyewitness identification could have helped convince Anderson?

[Lewis C]

Lewis C , on the probability of Anderson's polish Jew being the same person mentioned by Macnaughten, I disagree 100%.
The whole point of Martin Fido's 1987 book was to examine if they were linked, and I submit, Martin showed they were.
Neither do I consider it extremely unlikely that the person watched by Sagar and Cox was not the indiviual refered to by Anderson and Swanson.
The reality is we cannot know if it was, tgere are not enough detail, but I see nothing to rule the possibility out.

Steve

I think that you misunderstood me. I was talking about witnesses, not suspects. I'm saying that I doubt that the City PC mentioned in the Abberconway version is the same witness that Anderson and Swanson mentioned. I don't know how many Jewish PC's there were, but I wouldn't think that a Jew who became a PC would refuse to testify against another Jew.

[Filby]

Just watched this and enjoyed it completely. Very well done.

- Jeff

Thanks for the link. Very insightful elements esp. emphasizing the lack of time synchronization, in addition to judgment, and complexities it created- paraphrasing here of course. Nicely done.

[Filby]

Which is why the title of the documentary finishes with a "?"

Asking a question, not stating as fact


I can't speak for the others involved but here is my personal position, it's not changed much in the last 15 years.

I believe that Anderson and Swanson, fully believed they had their man.
However, I accept they could have been mistaken.
For me Aaron is the best fit for Kosminski, on the evidence currently available.
Indeed the 1890 visit to the Workhouse, then returning to his brother, fits Swanson's comments like a glove.
The major issue is the died soon afterwards.
Which either means it's not AK, or maybe the transfer from Colney Hatch to Leavesden got misreported.

Steve

Nicely summarized. I was in full confidence mode thinking AK was JtR until I learned about this glaring error on Swanson's part. Swanson must have had massive amounts of paperwork to manage during the height of the case so during that time I could possibly give him a pass on that score - but a whopper of an error to make for one of your final written testimony and confirmations regarding your prime suspect.

[The Baron]

13th September 2024.
Featuring John Malcolm, Patricia Marshall, Adrien Morris and Steven Blomer

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/NKiawEkQ9woKxd7K/

The best documentary on the subject out there, thank you all, I enjoyed every minute of it.


The Baron

[Scott Nelson]

Indeed the 1890 visit to the Workhouse, then returning to his brother, fits Swanson's comments like a glove.
The major issue is the died soon afterwards.
Which either means it's not AK, or maybe the transfer from Colney Hatch to Leavesden got misreported.

Kosminski was returned to his brother's house in July 1890 after a 3-day stint in the workhouse. Approximately 7 months later he's returned to the workhouse. Seven months is a long time, hardly the "very short time" Swanson tells us he was watched. If the City CID were watching him by day and night all that time, the costs would have been considerable -- and the surveillance wasn't even within city police jurisdiction.

Somebody else whose name was reported to the police as "Kosminski" makes better sense.

[spyglass]

One suggestion is that the perceived fear of mass public disorder, if it was revealed the killer was Jewish, was an important factor.
Particularily if there was not sufficient evidence to ensure conviction.
Indeed even a successful conviction could conceivably result in the same.
Therefore, you keep the name a secret, the fewer who know, the less chance of a leak.
The end result, the name Kosminski does not surface until the second half of the next century with Macnaughten, and not until nearly 100 years after the 1888 murder, in the case of the Marginlia .

On Coles, look at it from Swanson perspective, you have seen a man you believe to be the killer locked away, and then another murder occurs that is linked to the previous series.
It would be negligent not to check that murder very carefully, because if it was by the same hand as the others, then the killer is still on the loose.
So Swanson, checks the murder himself, adds it to the list of murders in the file, and in my view concludes it's not by the sane hand.

On Macnaughten, the Abberconway version is significantly different to the file version.

The Abberconway version says that the killer was never seen, unless it was by the City PC close to Mitre Square.
In the file version it just says he was never seen.
The Abberconway version also say with regards to "Kosminski" that he bore a great resemblance to that person seen close to Mitre Square; again that is missing from the file version.

In my opinion the memorandum is the oddest document in the whole case, full of blatant, sloppy mistakes. I have pondered for many years if it is all that it seems on the surface.
I plan at some point to produce an indepth work on the memorandum.

I hope that addresses some of your points to a degree.

Steve

I'm guessing fear of civil unrest would apply to who ever the suspect was, Jewish or not especially when you consider the outrage of it all at the time, but I doubt if unrest would have actually happened in reality.
Having said that, the excuse given for wiping off the Graffito doesn't hold true with me, it feels either like an act in the minute of acting without thinking first, and then realising what he had done, or he knew more than he was letting on.
I also think that if the Police truly believed they had finally got the killer, they wouldnt have held back letting the press and public know, especially when you consider the absolute criticism and negativity all this had caused them.

[The Baron]

If the City CID were watching him by day and night all that time, the costs would have been considerable

Nop. Not necessarily.



The Baron

[GBinOz]

If Schwartz was Anderson's witness, and Kosminski was the identified suspect, does it necessarily follow that Kosminski murdered anyone other than Stride? The theory that Stride's murderer was interrupted before he could proceed with his mutilation fits her up as a ripper victim, but she doesn't really fit Jack's M.O..