Druitt Podcast

[Herlock Sholmes]

I get a slight suspicion that there might be some new stuff on Druitt in the Barts Health NHS Trust Archives

I’m glad you’ve recovered from your illness by the way Astatine (I meant to say that the other day but forgot)

It would certainly be interesting if there was more info. Jon Hainsworth has speculated that Druitt might have started on medical training and then dropped out based on the fact that there’s a missing 18 months between him leaving university and him beginning his Legal training. He fully admits that he currently has no confirmation of this though. If you could find something though.....

[rjpalmer]

Well, I don't know enough about him to say whether he was well bred or not.

Besides, I hope the murders were committed by a Dane - as a Danish ripperologist, I'd finally have the advantage!

I forgot to mention that Christian Hansen was a cattle driver and one of the earliest theories of the murders (Larkin) was that the Ripper was a cattle driver.

Hi Kattrup.

Off-topic, but this might interest you.

One of the detectives who investigated the Whitechapel Murders was born in Denmark.

Evans and Skinner give his name as 'F. Kuhrt' but his handwriting was free flowing and it was actually 'T. Kuhrt'--Timm Nicholas Kuhrt.

His pension papers list him as being born in Wilster, Schleswig-Holstein. I don't know anything about the territorial dispute, but Kuhrt must have considered himself a Dane, as he lists Denmark as his birthplace both in 1901 and 1911, and even uses the word 'Dane.'

He translated German documents relevant to the murders in 1888, and also worked both the Mackenzie and Coles cases. I've never heard anyone mention him, but he must have had a story or two to tell.


RP

[Astatine211]

I’m glad you’ve recovered from your illness by the way Astatine (I meant to say that the other day but forgot)

It would certainly be interesting if there was more info. Jon Hainsworth has speculated that Druitt might have started on medical training and then dropped out based on the fact that there’s a missing 18 months between him leaving university and him beginning his Legal training. He fully admits that he currently has no confirmation of this though. If you could find something though.....

Thank you!

Currently I have a checklist of items I would like to look at in various archives around the country which I am hoping to explore once covid is over. This includes the daunting task of having to go over two entire years of police orders looking for PC 60 C due to the index files for C and D division not surviving.

Included in the NHS archives is the results of medical students handwriting tests and specific suspect correspondence in 1966 which I haven't been able to find referenced anywhere else.

[Kattrup]

Hi Kattrup.

Off-topic, but this might interest you.

One of the detectives who investigated the Whitechapel Murders was born in Denmark.

Evans and Skinner give his name as 'F. Kuhrt' but his handwriting was free flowing and it was actually 'T. Kuhrt'--Timm Nicholas Kuhrt.

His pension papers list him as being born in Wilster, Schleswig-Holstein. I don't know anything about the territorial dispute, but Kuhrt must have considered himself a Dane, as he lists Denmark as his birthplace both in 1901 and 1911, and even uses the word 'Dane.'

He translated German documents relevant to the murders in 1888, and also worked both the Mackenzie and Coles cases. I've never heard anyone mention him, but he must have had a story or two to tell.


RP

Thanks rj, I'll look into Kuhrt's history - the horror!

There's no territorial dispute; schleswig-holstein is an integral part of the Danish kingdom. Any disputes to this come from madmen or Germans and are unsafe to rely on.

What German documents relevant to the case did Kuhrt work on, do you know?

[rjpalmer]

Hi Kattrup,

I probably should have used the word 'correspondence' rather than 'document.' The only surviving example that I am aware of is that he translated the correspondence between Scotland Yard and the Bremen police about the sexual deviant/hairdresser 'Mary,' who attacked women in Strasbourg in 1880. The Met discovered that Mary was in still prison and could not have been the Ripper.

I theorize, however, that Kuhrt's role was more important than this, as he was also involved in the Whitechapel Murder investigation in 1889 and again in 1891. We know that detectives who investigated the murders in 1888 were brought back for the later investigations. No doubt his language skills were very useful.

I don't recall when Kuhrt first came to the UK, but he joined the Metropolitan Police in July 1874 and served many years. He died in Essex in 1927.

[rjpalmer]

Thanks rj, I'll look into Kuhrt's history - the horror!

Nice one!

[spyglass]

For me, Druitt has more going for him as a prime suspect than the likes of Kosminski and quite a few others.

[Scott Nelson]

The possible link to the Crawford Letter for example.

Is there a consensus that this letter may refer to Druitt, or Kosminski, or somebody else entirely?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is there a consensus that this letter may refer to Druitt, or Kosminski, or somebody else entirely?

There’s certainly no consensus as far as I’m aware Scott. Jon Hainsworth references it in The Escape Of Jack The Ripper. In what he describes as an ‘angst-filled letter’ Isabella Druitt (Monty’s Aunt) informs her daughter Emily that she’s visited Cavendish Square (where Crawford lived) then she tells her that she feels that she’ll never be rid of this ‘encumbrance,’ but she doesn’t clarify what that ‘encumbrance’ was. Obviously this could refer to something entirely unconnected but I think it’s an interesting possibility.

[GUT]

There are personal reasons that I am interested in Druitt, I was told many years ago (didn’t even really know who JtR was, other than he killed some women, I thought lots more) that my family knew who he was.

Years later when I got interested found there were only two named suspects that fit the Bill. Deeming, who wasn’t in England at the time, in all probability, and Druitt.

Our connection with Deeming was at best fleeting, however my family’s connections to the Druitt family were multiple. So far I cannot find one reason to exclude him from the possible suspects.

a few connections...

My first Aussie ancestor lived at King’s School, where Lionel Druitt was deputy principal
Druitt baptised about 8 out of the 9 children
Druitts family and members of mine served at the same churches
Druitt was at school at the same time as one of my relatives
my mob and Lionel Druitt’s descendants are known to have remained in contact for many years

[Herlock Sholmes]

There are personal reasons that I am interested in Druitt, I was told many years ago (didn’t even really know who JtR was, other than he killed some women, I thought lots more) that my family knew who he was.

Years later when I got interested found there were only two named suspects that fit the Bill. Deeming, who wasn’t in England at the time, in all probability, and Druitt.

Our connection with Deeming was at best fleeting, however my family’s connections to the Druitt family were multiple. So far I cannot find one reason to exclude him from the possible suspects.

a few connections...

My first Aussie ancestor lived at King’s School, where Lionel Druitt was deputy principal
Druitt baptised about 8 out of the 9 children
Druitts family and members of mine served at the same churches
Druitt was at school at the same time as one of my relatives
my mob and Lionel Druitt’s descendants are known to have remained in contact for many years

Interesting stuff GUT. It’s a pity you couldn’t have spoken to Jon Hainsworth. He’s an Aussie too (in case you didn’t know.)

Mention of Australia just reminds me of the arse kicking I’m expecting England to get in the Ashes this Winter.

[GUT]

Oops, Typed Lionel, he was the Doctor, should have been Thomas, the Bishop.

[Kattrup]

Hi Kattrup,

I probably should have used the word 'correspondence' rather than 'document.' The only surviving example that I am aware of is that he translated the correspondence between Scotland Yard and the Bremen police about the sexual deviant/hairdresser 'Mary,' who attacked women in Strasbourg in 1880. The Met discovered that Mary was in still prison and could not have been the Ripper.

I theorize, however, that Kuhrt's role was more important than this, as he was also involved in the Whitechapel Murder investigation in 1889 and again in 1891. We know that detectives who investigated the murders in 1888 were brought back for the later investigations. No doubt his language skills were very useful.

I don't recall when Kuhrt first came to the UK, but he joined the Metropolitan Police in July 1874 and served many years. He died in Essex in 1927.

I am sorry to say that I am unable to find much about Kuhrt. Probably anyone with a decent genealogical subscription could find more. Mainly because he was born outside current Danish borders, so the Danish National Archives have tended to digitize other documents.

His birthplace of Wilster is in the Duchy of Holstein, which was ruled by Denmark until 1864 but also formed part of the German Empire. The whole thing was a big mess in the 19th Century and is famous for the whimsical quotation by a british statesman that the question of what to do with Schleswig-Holstein was so complex that only three people really understood it: one was dead, another mad and the third had forgotten all about it.

At any rate, Kuhrt being born in Wilster 1845 or 1846 (both are seen, the A-Z has 1845 and is probably correct as his YoB would be taken from his police file) would make him a Danish subject. After 1864 Holstein came under Prussian rule and the Danish subjects were allowed to retain their allegiance to Denmark, the socalled Optants. While this subject has been much researched for the groups living in the two duchies, I'm not aware of any research pertaining to optant-status for those living abroad, so it is certainly interesting that Kuhrt as late as 1911 would put "Dane" as nationality.

It's not really surprising, though, he would have been a Danish subject for the first 20 years of his life, and the fact that his homeregion had been annexed by another nation would not automatically change that, particularly since he probably did not live there for long after German rule, if at all.

According to the NA, he joined the Metropolitan Police on July 6th 1874, warrant nr. 58012, and left on August 7th 1899 as a police sergeant in the G division. The A-Z says he was stationed to G division in 1888 and participated in the investigations of the murders of Alice Mackenzie and Frances Coles.

One google-hit gives his address in february 1879 as 5 Collett Road, Bermondsey, S.E. and his occupation as police sergeant, Bow Street station. He married an Anne or Annie in 1880 and had five children and after retirement lived in Langdon Hills, Essex: https://wiki.casebook.org/timm_kuhrt.html

Old Bailey has him giving testimony in four cases 1883-84. More from other courts can probably be found in newspaper reports.

Sorry, nothing new, just a smattering of online-searches. Even though he was Danish