George Hutchinson Revisited

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

I absolutely agree with you about the timings quoted - my thoughts were about how quickly MJK might meet someone new at the pub. I was wondering, if it was her at the pub that Mrs Kennedy saw - did she go with the man Hutchinson claims he saw. If not she must have met a new punter almost immediately on arrival.

According to Sarah Lewis that man was outside the Britannia about 2:30, so he'd been there for a half hour. As Kelly left Millers court she may have seen people stood outside the Britannia, and headed for them. If what we read about her is true, she was out that night looking for clients.

[etenguy]

It was a whole different time back then. Today we are used to being so precise, everybody has a watch, a phone, alarms to remind us for everything.
It's not easy to grasp how we could live by the chimes of church bells. If you hear bells shortly after something happened, you time it to those bells. Likewise, if you hear bells shortly before something happened, it's the same thing, but in both cases, the few minutes between the event & the bells, is disregarded by everyone.

All we can assume is that as Hutch left, he heard the 3:00 chimes, he could have just turned into Commercial St. as Kelly & Astrachan came out of Millers court. They may have been waiting for Hutch to leave.
Kelly could have been outside the Britannia only minutes after the 3:00 chime just as Kennedy approached.
A couple of minutes either way would not change Kennedy's story in any way.
The cry of "murder" was heard roughly 45 minutes later.

The timing is sufficient for me to suspect the man outside the Britannia was the last person to see Kelly alive.
Astrachan is therefore off the suspect list, in my view.

Hi Wickerman

I absolutely agree with you about the timings quoted - my thoughts were about how quickly MJK might meet someone new at the pub. I was wondering, if it was her at the pub that Mrs Kennedy saw - did she go with the man Hutchinson claims he saw. If not she must have met a new punter almost immediately on arrival.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

It is interesting that Hutchinson states Kelly was in her room at 3.00am, the same time Mrs Kennedy states she saw her at the Britannia. While the pub was quite close by and we can allow Mrs Kennedy some lee-way with the time - it seems likely Kelly was still with the same man if she was at the pub, else she would have to had found another well dressed man to drink with in a very short time.

It was a whole different time back then. Today we are used to being so precise, everybody has a watch, a phone, alarms to remind us for everything.
It's not easy to grasp how we could live by the chimes of church bells. If you hear bells shortly after something happened, you time it to those bells. Likewise, if you hear bells shortly before something happened, it's the same thing, but in both cases, the few minutes between the event & the bells, is disregarded by everyone.

All we can assume is that as Hutch left, he heard the 3:00 chimes, he could have just turned into Commercial St. as Kelly & Astrachan came out of Millers court. They may have been waiting for Hutch to leave.
Kelly could have been outside the Britannia only minutes after the 3:00 chime just as Kennedy approached.
A couple of minutes either way would not change Kennedy's story in any way.
The cry of "murder" was heard roughly 45 minutes later.

The timing is sufficient for me to suspect the man outside the Britannia was the last person to see Kelly alive.
Astrachan is therefore off the suspect list, in my view.

[Abby Normal]

One can believe Hutchinson yet consider the man seen innocent. He could have been simply a customer.

I see no reason to disbelieve Hutchinson. That does not mean I am certain Astrakhan Man was the ripper. He's a good candidate, though.

hi Kattrup
a good candidate? a villanous looking man carrying a knife sized parcel entering marys room an hour or so before the screams of murder are heard? he should be suspect number one on everyones list if you beleive hutch.

and if he was simply a customer, shouldnt that put the onus back on hutch? engaging in stalking behavior and watches them go into her room, waits around, then says he leaves after 45 minutes-no alibi. did he come back at some point to see if aman is gone? he had no where else to go.

I mean we got barnett, blotchy, hutch and aman all with her that night. Is there really a need for a phantom suspect?

[Joshua Rogan]

Not a massively important point but I wonder why Kelly needed money at 2.00 am?

Echo 10 Nov
"An elderly man who wore a coat and waistcoat, but no shirt beneath, averred in pessimistic tones it was better for Mary Jane Kelly to have been done to death. "Wot was her life?" he muttered, spreading out his thin and not too clean hands to the fire. "Starvation three days a week, and then, when she got money, drink for the other three days. I knowed her. I guv her the money for her doss three weeks ago cos she hadn't none. Yes, matey, and that at two in the mornin'," he said, turning to our reporter whose intent bearing may possibly have suggested incredulity."

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hey Herlock, I hope you are well. I would hazard a guess the money was for a fish and potato pie and possibly a pint.

Hi Eten

[etenguy]

If it wasn't for the statement of Mrs Kennedy yes, but as her claim to have seen Kelly outside the Britannia again, about 3:00 am, lets Astrachan off the hook.
Astrachan was not the last person to be seen with Kelly that morning.

Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday.
Evening News, 10 Nov. 1888.

Hi Wickerman

It is interesting that Hutchinson states Kelly was in her room at 3.00am, the same time Mrs Kennedy states she saw her at the Britannia. While the pub was quite close by and we can allow Mrs Kennedy some lee-way with the time - it seems likely Kelly was still with the same man if she was at the pub, else she would have to had found another well dressed man to drink with in a very short time.

[etenguy]

Not a massively important point but I wonder why Kelly needed money at 2.00 am?

Hey Herlock, I hope you are well. I would hazard a guess the money was for a fish and potato pie and possibly a pint.

[rjpalmer]

Some dots should not be connected

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I believe Astrakhan Man was actually A Victim. The Star, Oct 15:

Thieves, it seems, are becoming emboldened by the common talk of the inadequate protection afforded by our police. "A Victim" writes :- Last evening, in Clerkenwell-road, my progress was stopped by a procession. Whilst crossing the road to get to a tramcar I was attacked by about eight roughs, who tried to throw me down, but unsuccessfully. I considered myself fortunate in escaping, but I discovered upon rebuttoning my overcoat that my gold watch and the greatest portion of a very heavy gold chain had been abstracted. I write this to show the need for carrying a stick and a police whistle, and also to rouse the energy of the police.

[Kattrup]

If it wasn't for the statement of Mrs Kennedy yes, but as her claim to have seen Kelly outside the Britannia again, about 3:00 am, lets Astrachan off the hook.
Astrachan was not the last person to be seen with Kelly that morning.

Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday.
Evening News, 10 Nov. 1888.

Yes...could still be Astrakhan man, though. Both Hutchinson and Kennedy mention a long dark coat, a dark moustache, hat, and that he walked funny.

[Wickerman]

One can believe Hutchinson yet consider the man seen innocent. He could have been simply a customer.

I see no reason to disbelieve Hutchinson. That does not mean I am certain Astrakhan Man was the ripper. He's a good candidate, though.

If it wasn't for the statement of Mrs Kennedy yes, but as her claim to have seen Kelly outside the Britannia again, about 3:00 am, lets Astrachan off the hook.
Astrachan was not the last person to be seen with Kelly that morning.

Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday.
Evening News, 10 Nov. 1888.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not a massively important point but I wonder why Kelly needed money at 2.00 am?

[Kattrup]

if hutch was telling tje truth then more than likely he saw the ripper. yet youll find no one on here who seriously considers a man as the ripper, eventhough they say they beleive hutch. weird. why is that?
ill tell you why... because in their heart of hearts they know its bull ****.

One can believe Hutchinson yet consider the man seen innocent. He could have been simply a customer.

I see no reason to disbelieve Hutchinson. That does not mean I am certain Astrakhan Man was the ripper. He's a good candidate, though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A constable would be required to put some particulars down in his pocketbook if approached by a person with that kind of information.
So yes, Abberline could have identified the officer & retrieved his pocketbook.

Right, so the notion that Hutchinson waited 3 days to make a statement, is a little misleading.

Hutchinson's mentioning of the brown kid gloves, is pretty interesting, considered against the next paragraph in the same edition of the PMG …

A paragraph in the morning papers states that the police have received from Mr. Samuel Osborne, wire worker, 20, Garden row, London road, a statement to the effect that he was walking along St. Paul's churchyard yesterday behind a respectably dressed man, when a parcel, wrapped in a newspaper, fell from the man's coat. Osborne told him that he had dropped something; but the man denied that the parcel belonged to him. Osborne picked up the parcel, and found that it contained a knife, having a peculiarly shaped handle and a thick blade, six or seven inches long, with stains upon it resembling blood. The parcel also contained a brown kid glove, smeared with similar stains on both sides. Osborne found a constable, and together they searched for the mysterious individual, but without success. The parcel, says the paragraph, was handed to the City police authorities, "who, however, attach no importance to the matter." What on earth could be more important, after the statement made by the man Hutchinson and quoted above?