Morris Lewis Revisited

[John G]

But this presumption is based entirely on a guess about the nature of the material (i.e. the curtains) that was covering the windows, something about which there is no evidence and we will never know to what extent it would have blocked out the light in the room.

And I must come back to the question you seem to be avoiding. What is the purpose of this discussion? Are you saying that the existence of the fire in some way points to the murder of Kelly having occurred before 9:00am?

If it's to be argued that Kelly was murdered by JtR, I think it's important to consider why she was eviscerated with no where near the level of skill that was apparently exhibited at the earlier murders. One such explanation is offered by Trevor, i.e. that the organs of the earlier victims were removed at the mortuary. However, one alternative explanation is that the killer was operating under lighting conditions that were even more appalling than Mitre Square, which is unlikely to be the case if she was murdered after, say, 9:00am, as suggested by both Maxwell's and Lewis's evidence, or indeed, if he had the benefit of the light from the fire.

[David Orsam]

If it's to be argued that Kelly was murdered by JtR, I think it's important to consider why she was eviscerated with no where near the level of skill that was apparently exhibited at the earlier murders. One such explanation is offered by Trevor, i.e. that the organs of the earlier victims were removed at the mortuary. However, one alternative explanation is that the killer was operating under lighting conditions that were even more appalling than Mitre Square, which is unlikely to be the case if she was murdered after, say, 9:00am, as suggested by both Maxwell's and Lewis's evidence, or indeed, if he had the benefit of the light from the fire.

Man, that is convoluted.

But as there was a lamp in Mitre Square it is quite possible that the killer was operating under worse lighting conditions in the room in Millers Court if the curtains blocked out the light from the room.

So where does that get us? You keep saying something is "unlikely" (based on guesswork) but I only need to show it is possible and then we are back to where we started.

Are you challenging the notion that Kelly could have been murdered after 9:00am or not?

[John G]

Man, that is convoluted.

But as there was a lamp in Mitre Square it is quite possible that the killer was operating under worse lighting conditions in the room in Millers Court if the curtains blocked out the light from the room.

So where does that get us? You keep saying something is "unlikely" (based on guesswork) but I only need to show it is possible and then we are back to where we started.

Are you challenging the notion that Kelly could have been murdered after 9:00am or not?

No, I think it's feasible that Kelly could have been murdered after 9:00am, however, if she was I think it raises a serious question mark as to whether JtR was her killer.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I have no problem with a morning murder.

According to The Times, 12th November, Dr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of H Division, said that when he was called to the deceased she had been dead some five or six hours.

Dr. Phillips could not have examined the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm [when the door was broken open], and so, if, as he said, “she had been dead some five or six hours," it put the time of death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

No, I think it's feasible that Kelly could have been murdered after 9:00am, however, if she was I think it raises a serious question mark as to whether JtR was her killer.

If that's based on the fact that JTR previously murdered at night and in the streets well fine, although personally I don't think it makes any difference, but please tell me that the "serious question mark" has got nothing to do with the fire.

[lynn cates]

same

Hello Simon. Hope you are well.

"I have no problem with a morning murder."

Nor yet I.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

In fine fettle, thanks, despite having to wear a heart monitor.

Yes, I see no problem with Maurice [Morris] Lewis and Mrs Maxwell.

Trust you and Deborah are well.

Regards,

Simon

[Trevor Marriott]

Apart from the heart.



Controversial!



Good question, what does any of this have to do with Morris Lewis and the time of Kelly's murder?

It has now been proven that the heart was not missing. I think you must have missed the lengthy debate on this topic.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[lynn cates]

interesting

Hello Simon. Thanks. I must wear a brain monitor. No signal thus far. (heh-heh)

Since a morning killing is possible, the bloke seen speaking with MJK becomes interesting.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Simon. Hope you are well.

"I have no problem with a morning murder."

Nor yet I.

Cheers.
LC

A morning murder may point to a different killer ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;379948]It's not silly at all Abby and would, on the contrary, have been a very sensible thing for the killer to do, whether you can imagine it or not.

I refer to you Sir Melville Macnaghten's "Days of My Years", page 118, when discussing the Camden Town murder:

'The murderer had probably stripped (a very usual procedure in these cases) before he cut the woman's throat, so that it was not be expected that we should - if an arrest were made - find any traces of blood on his clothes.'

David,

you refer us to Macnaghten. He is using the word "probably" and the phrase "very usual".

What are his data for that statement? Do you actually know the data?

Or do you simply believe everything you read from 1888?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

John

Well look at it another way, if as I suggest the organs from Eddowes and Chapman were removed at the mortuary by someone with anatomical knowledge i.e medical student,anatomist etc that is where the anatomical knowledge first showed up when they bodise were subjected to a post mortem so that fits.

We know that no organs were removed from Kelly and taken away. So where does that point take us in all of this.

Firstly, if all were one killer then is goes some way to show the organs were not removed by the killer from Eddowes and Chapman. Because with Kelly in effect he could have taken away many different body parts

So, it either tells us that Kelly was murdered by the same killer, or her killing made to look like the others if the latter what was the motive ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Dr Bond: "The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent".

(Evans & Skinner, p. 384, Dr Bond`s report, transcription from the original).

Regards, Pierre

[Trevor Marriott]

Dr Bond: "The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent".

(Evans & Skinner, p. 384, Dr Bond`s report, transcription from the original).

Regards, Pierre

Interview with Inspector Reid - News of the World 1896

"I ought to tell you that the stories of portions of the body having been taken away by the murderer were all untrue. In every instance the body was complete. The mania of the murderer was exclusively for horrible mutilation."

Marriott - Jack the Ripper -The Secret Police Files 2016

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[jerryd]

Interview with Inspector Reid - News of the World 1896

"I ought to tell you that the stories of portions of the body having been taken away by the murderer were all untrue. In every instance the body was complete. The mania of the murderer was exclusively for horrible mutilation."

Marriott - Jack the Ripper -The Secret Police Files 2016

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

What was being sifted in the ashes by the medical men in the Kelly case? Wouldn't the medical men be sifting for body parts?


Echo London Middlesex November 13, 1888



Sorry to go off topic, David.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

What was being sifted in the ashes by the medical men in the Kelly case? Wouldn't the medical men be sifting for body parts?


Echo London Middlesex November 13, 1888



Sorry to go off topic, David.

To be honest I dont think there is a definitive answer to that question. But according to Reid all parts were later accounted for. So either that search revealed what they were looking for, or it was futile.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk