Morris Lewis and the reporting of his story

[David Orsam]

Well, I'm assuming that the only witness who could effectively testify to Kelly being killed before 9:00am would be her killer, but unfortunately he didn't make an appearance at the inquest either...mind you, on second thoughts, maybe he did!

As a matter of simple fact that's wrong. Someone could have seen the murder occurring through the window. Someone could have seen the murderer leaving the room with bloody knife in hand. Someone could even have heard the murder taking place (and perhaps some would say they did!).

[David Orsam]

So, you're obviously correct, although I would conclude 1-0 to the possibly unreliable witness!

A witness who is "possibly unreliable" is also, by definition, possibly reliable.

I rest my case.

[John G]

A witness who is "possibly unreliable" is also, by definition, possibly reliable.

I rest my case.

Yes, of course, and the same could be said of George Hutchinson, Matthew Packer et al.

[David Orsam]

Yes, of course, and the same could be said of George Hutchinson, Matthew Packer et al.

Fine, but neither of those said they saw MJK being murdered before 9am!

[John G]

Fine, but neither of those said they saw MJK being murdered before 9am!

How very true, David. However, they illustrate the conundrum: a number of witnesses during the 1888 police investigations appear to be unreliable, at least from a modern perspective, without there being any absolute proof that they lied or, Indeed, were mistaken.

[David Orsam]

How very true, David. However, they illustrate the conundrum: a number of witnesses during the 1888 police investigations appear to be unreliable, at least from a modern perspective, without there being any absolute proof that they lied or, Indeed, were mistaken.

But tell me this John. WHY do you think Mrs Maxwell appears to be unreliable?

Surely you must agree that most people think this - and did at the time - (a) because what she was saying conflicted with the time of death estimated by the medical men and (b) because of the cry of murder in the night.

But if you remove those two factors from the equation, what is there to indicate that anything Mrs Maxwell said was untrue?

[packers stem]

Doubting Maxwell is 'theory driven' David.
I am fairly certain had the body been discovered some hours later there'd be few,if any doubters and people would point to her with Lewis' corroboration as solid.

[Michael W Richards]

But tell me this John. WHY do you think Mrs Maxwell appears to be unreliable?

Surely you must agree that most people think this - and did at the time - (a) because what she was saying conflicted with the time of death estimated by the medical men and (b) because of the cry of murder in the night.

But if you remove those two factors from the equation, what is there to indicate that anything Mrs Maxwell said was untrue?

You give Bond no cred when it comes to his ability to set an approximate time of death so you thinks thats a potential throw away, and you dont see the potential relevance of that call out on the physical state of Mary Kelly at that time of night, so I can see why you would want to back Maxwell.

Too bad not one contemporary professional opinion agrees with your take on the matter.

[David Orsam]

You give Bond no cred when it comes to his ability to set an approximate time of death so you thinks thats a potential throw away, and you dont see the potential relevance of that call out on the physical state of Mary Kelly at that time of night, so I can see why you would want to back Maxwell.

Too bad not one contemporary professional opinion agrees with your take on the matter.

Michael - my post was directed at John who, like me, understands that it was impossible for Dr Bond to have accurately estimated a time of death. He knows that 2am was no more than a guess and, therefore, I am asking HIM why he thinks Mrs Maxwell's evidence was unreliable.

What you think about the matter isn't relevant because I wasn't asking you the question.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael - my post was directed at John who, like me, understands that it was impossible for Dr Bond to have accurately estimated a time of death. He knows that 2am was no more than a guess and, therefore, I am asking HIM why he thinks Mrs Maxwell's evidence was unreliable.

What you think about the matter isn't relevant because I wasn't asking you the question.

You're on par with rudeness with the best of them here David, and I have 11 years of observations here to base that on. You post on a members board, you get responses from members. You dont want to have contrary opinion, then keep your own to yourself.

The fact that you seem to be defending the Maxwell statement suggests you are oblivious to or unaffected by contemporary opinion of her statement. Or the physical and circumstantial evidence aside from the rigor onset. Like what that cry out near 4am might indicate about Mary Kellys status.

[packers stem]

Hi Michael
On the subject of contemporary opinion is it not likely that Abberline must have been convinced that Maxwell did know who Kelly was otherwise he would surely have taken her to view the body as had happened with earlier witnesses?
Clothing description possibly,the woolen crossover?
Maybe it's more of a recent opinion than contemporary other than the coroner who I suspect was swayed by the medical opinion at the inquest

[David Orsam]

You're on par with rudeness with the best of them here David, and I have 11 years of observations here to base that on. You post on a members board, you get responses from members. You dont want to have contrary opinion, then keep your own to yourself.

The fact that you seem to be defending the Maxwell statement suggests you are oblivious to or unaffected by contemporary opinion of her statement. Or the physical and circumstantial evidence aside from the rigor onset. Like what that cry out near 4am might indicate about Mary Kellys status.

Like I said Michael, your post was irrelevant because my post to which you were responding was directed specifically at John.

If you want to discuss time of death with me fine but I seem to recall that, in another thread, all you posted in support of your claim that modern medical opinion would support Dr Bond was reference to a book, the abstract of which didn't even to support what you were saying.

And "contemporary opinion" about Mrs Maxwell's statement is worthless if it was based either on the medical opinion about time of death or the cry of murder. That's what I'm trying to point out. I'm not here to defend Maxwell, and have no interest in doing so, simply to challenge the reasons why she is thought to be unreliable. That was the purpose of my question to John.

[David Orsam]

But tell me this John. WHY do you think Mrs Maxwell appears to be unreliable?

Surely you must agree that most people think this - and did at the time - (a) because what she was saying conflicted with the time of death estimated by the medical men and (b) because of the cry of murder in the night.

But if you remove those two factors from the equation, what is there to indicate that anything Mrs Maxwell said was untrue?

Are you going to have a crack at answering this John?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Top quality insight from David in the initial post on this thread, particularly the observation that Lewis didn't know the identity of the victim when he gave his initial statement (the milk episode).

I think the report stating: "there is good reason to think the murderer spent the night in the room" could do with some meat on the bones.

I wonder if this was due to finding something in the room which indicated the murderer had stayed a good length of time?

[Fleetwood Mac]

In terms of Maxwell's testimony being unreliable:

I understand that Bond's estimated time of death is of limited value, but I place a good deal of value in JTR being a night time killer. 10am in the morning certainly wouldn't fit with his pattern of behaviour.