Morris Lewis and the reporting of his story

[packers stem]

That's the biggest problem, surely if she'd been in th pub, any dan pub for that matter, surely at least one other person would have come forward, like a barman.

We know she was in the pub the night before so where are those witnesses ??

[David Orsam]

But David, at 10:00 am I think they may recognize you.

Why do you say that?

[David Orsam]

If the witnesses were questioned together, they would have heard what Mrs Maxwell said.

Do you have a source showing that the witnesses were questioned together?

And do you have a source showing that the witnesses (and Mrs Maxwell in particular) were questioned at all by the police before 3pm on 9 November? Or even before 4:30pm?

[packers stem]

Hi John

Hello Packers,

Well, I think I might just have discovered who your prime suspect is!

Really ? Does it matter to this thread?

However, as I noted, Schwartz was initially taken extremely seriously by a number of senior figures.

Why was he absent from the inquest?? As I've mentioned before he would be unreliable in many eyes had it not been for the home office files .

In stark contrast, there is no evidence that Lewis was taken remotely seriously by anyone-and I think it inconceivable that there wouldn't have been surviving official reports, referring to Lewis, if that were not the case.

If that single Schwartz report had vanished???
Is it also inconceivable that there were no Mary Kelly mortuary photos or was it OK for them to disappear but not a report on Lewis?

And, at the very least, a few press statements are clearly insufficient to determine the credibility of witness who's evidence was not tested at an inquest, and I think it's a fair assumption that any police interview didn't go to well for him, otherwise there would surely be surviving reports and he may well have ended up as the prime witness, instead of rapidly disappearing into obscurity!

But John ,it's not his fault that he wasn't called to the inquest and it's not necessarily a fair assumption that the interview wouldn't have gone well .Like with Schwartz ,we can not know the reasons behind the thinking of not calling him .

[GUT]

This is obviously a point to take into consideration but let me tell you something about the murder of Emily Dimmock in 1907.

A burnt letter was found in her fireplace suggesting she had met someone at the Eagle public house in Camden Town on the night of her death. Despite speaking to the barmaid, who was shown a photograph of Dimmock, the police were unable to find anyone who saw Dimmock in the Eagle that night.

Dimmock WAS however in the Eagle that night and she did have a drink with Robert Wood and a friend of Wood's who was there by chance. It was only after the arrest of Wood, about two weeks after the murder, that the police could confirm this and the barmaid was able to identify Wood and she also suddenly remembered seeing Emily.

If I had been in a pub drinking last night (which I wasn't) and someone who had also been in there at the same time had been found murdered today (which they weren't) I doubt I would be able to confirm that they had been there.

But David, at 10:00 am I think they may recognize you.

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

I'm more concerned with why you've ignored all my posts addressed to you and have responded to one of my posts to John.

I take that as a "no".

If the witnesses were questioned together, they would have heard what Mrs Maxwell said.

Regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

That's the biggest problem, surely if she'd been in th pub, any dan pub for that matter, surely at least one other person would have come forward, like a barman.

Heh! See my post#104.

[David Orsam]

Moreover, enquiries at the Britannia, and other local pubs, found that there was no evidence that Kelly had been served with drink on the morning of her murder, as Maxwell claimed (this also undermines Lewis as well).

This is obviously a point to take into consideration but let me tell you something about the murder of Emily Dimmock in 1907.

A burnt letter was found in her fireplace suggesting she had met someone at the Eagle public house in Camden Town on the night of her death. Despite speaking to the barmaid, who was shown a photograph of Dimmock, the police were unable to find anyone who saw Dimmock in the Eagle that night.

Dimmock WAS however in the Eagle that night and she did have a drink with Robert Wood and a friend of Wood's who was there by chance. It was only after the arrest of Wood, about two weeks after the murder, that the police could confirm this and the barmaid was able to identify Wood and she also suddenly remembered seeing Emily.

If I had been in a pub drinking last night (which I wasn't) and someone who had also been in there at the same time had been found murdered today (which they weren't) I doubt I would be able to confirm that they had been there.

[GUT]

In her case there must have been serious suspicion that she'd mixed Kelly up with someone else. Moreover, enquiries at the Britannia, and other local pubs, found that there was no evidence that Kelly had been served with drink on the morning of her murder, as Maxwell claimed (this also undermines Lewis as well).

Nonetheless, I accept this is something that the grand conspiracy theorists will never accept (not that I'm suggesting your one of those, David!).

Moreover, if Lewis and Maxwell are correct, there must surely be a large number of witnesses who were aware that Kelly was still alive well after the time she was presumed to have been murdered, and witnesses who were either involved, or aware, of her dramatic "escape" from Whitechapel.

And the temptation for anyone of those witnesses to come forward over the following days, months and years must have been enormous. I mean, anyone who did come forward would probably have become such a local celebrity that they might well have never had to buy a drink again!

That's the biggest problem, surely if she'd been in th pub, any dan pub for that matter, surely at least one other person would have come forward, like a barman.

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

The police took the statements of the witnesses on Dorset Street 9 November. Mrs Maxwell was one of them. Do you know if they took them separately, or were any of the witnesses questioned together?

Hi Pierre,

I'm more concerned with why you've ignored all my posts addressed to you and have responded to one of my posts to John.

[John G]

Like Caroline Maxwell, whose evidence must have been considered "remotely plausible", was one of the most important witnesses in the entire inquiry?

In her case there must have been serious suspicion that she'd mixed Kelly up with someone else. Moreover, enquiries at the Britannia, and other local pubs, found that there was no evidence that Kelly had been served with drink on the morning of her murder, as Maxwell claimed (this also undermines Lewis as well).

Nonetheless, I accept this is something that the grand conspiracy theorists will never accept (not that I'm suggesting your one of those, David!).

Moreover, if Lewis and Maxwell are correct, there must surely be a large number of witnesses who were aware that Kelly was still alive well after the time she was presumed to have been murdered, and witnesses who were either involved, or aware, of her dramatic "escape" from Whitechapel.

And the temptation for anyone of those witnesses to come forward over the following days, months and years must have been enormous. I mean, anyone who did come forward would probably have become such a local celebrity that they might well have never had to buy a drink again!

[John G]

Hi John



Bingo...
My thoughts entirely
I do hope people can see the parallels

Hello Packers,

Well, I think I might just have discovered who your prime suspect is! However, as I noted, Schwartz was initially taken extremely seriously by a number of senior figures. In stark contrast, there is no evidence that Lewis was taken remotely seriously by anyone-and I think it inconceivable that there wouldn't have been surviving official reports, referring to Lewis, if that were not the case.

And, at the very least, a few press statements are clearly insufficient to determine the credibility of witness who's evidence was not tested at an inquest, and I think it's a fair assumption that any police interview didn't go to well for him, otherwise there would surely be surviving reports and he may well have ended up as the prime witness, instead of rapidly disappearing into obscurity!

[David Orsam]

So the conclusion is that Morris Lewis might not even have known Mary Jane Kelly. And if he didnīt, we donīt know who he is speaking about.

Pierre, how do you manage to extract from Edward's post, in which he was talking about people who were not familiar with number 13 Millers Court, a conclusion that Morris Lewis might not have known Mary Jane Kelly?

[David Orsam]

However, if Lewis' evidence was considered remotely plausible he would surely become one of the most important witnesses in the entire inquiry, i.e. because he would have been the last witness to see Kelly alive and he apparently saw her in the company of a suspect called "Dan", who was possibly Joseph Barnett, at the Britannia.

Like Caroline Maxwell, whose evidence must have been considered "remotely plausible", was one of the most important witnesses in the entire inquiry?

[packers stem]

Hi John

Hi David,

Okay, fair point about the missing police reports. However, if Lewis' evidence was considered remotely plausible he would surely become one of the most important witnesses in the entire inquiry, i.e. because he would have been the last witness to see Kelly alive and he apparently saw her in the company of a suspect called "Dan", who was possibly Joseph Barnett, at the Britannia.

Of course, Israel Schwartz, if his evidence is to be believed, would also have been the last person to see a victim alive, and with a suspect, but despite not appearing at the inquest either, his evidence, at least initially, was taken so seriously that it was even commented on by the Home Secretary!

Bingo...
My thoughts entirely
I do hope people can see the parallels